Bell & Carlson Stock Order

[alberta tactical rifle]

Who is this ???? you need to give your head a shake "Canadian's" have the right to do what the f--ck they want to! If that mean going to the US to buy stuff good on them. Nails in the coffins of local gun shops? Guess the local guy better figure out a smarter way to do business. When the big box stores show up like Bass Pro and Cabela's the little local gun shops WSS included will have to take note of prices and get inline. No more of this screw the customer stuff like we get now when we ask to order a black b&c stock at WSS and they ask for 245 dollars. When I can get it out of the US for 145 shipped to my door. Thats a 100$ and I didn't even have to get in my truck and drive the 45km's to local gun shop. Getting caught and crying?? Ok I agree with you there if they ##### they are just sissy men get your act together. Really why would a smart person give any local guy a 100$ more for a stock that is exactly the same as I get US side for 100$ less? Especially since you don't get any great level of customer service in any reasonable amount of time in the City of Calgary? Alberta Tactical Rifle when was the last time you started a $100 dollar bill on Fire? See I figured so..... next time you want to ##### about some one going state side go outside in front of your garage/gun shop and light a $100 bill on fire then come in and post something on CGN about it. Good luck on lighting that 100$ bill on fire. Tell me how it hurts then.

You are absolutely right! It is everyones right to break any countries laws they please. It is also their right to get themselves "persona non grata " status in the US for getting caught illegally importing/exporting controlled goods ( gun parts for the dumber 1s). Just as it is also their right to have their vehicles seized by Homeland Security during an egress check over $100.00 worth of reloading components.
Not everyone is up on the laws of import/export so I thought I would be a nice guy and explain the facts to them.
If you don't know who ITAR or CGD or DFAIT is are I guess ignorance is bliss.
If you think the likes of Cabelas and Bass Pro are exempt from duties and shipping costs shake your head. They aren't.
I will grant you that due to their large purchasing power they get a far better deal than even the biggest Cdn retailer does, thats just commerce, and when they do get established some shops will be hurt or killed.
If you think that their US prices will be held here, shake your head ALOT!!
Transport costs, wages and in many cases real estate costs are significantly higher in Canada that in most parts of the US, I hope you are not stunned enough to figure even the great Cabelas will just suck up a 20 plus percent difference in wages and overhead.
Goods actually manufactured in the US are duty exempt as per NAFTA, but many goods are not, Nightforce scopes is 1 that comes to mind, there is a 7% duty on them, so unless you plan they use a broker that is willing to get jacked up for lying on the B3 forms that equates to a 7% higher price on the same item when purchased legally here in Canada.
Maybe when all the smaller shops are gone and there is no-one left to bother getting the lower volume sales, or specialty items in or to service your toys, you will begin to understand.
Destroying/defacing currency is also against the law by the way, so I can only surmise you have a broad criminal tendency.

 

[gommee]

Choices

Hell has no FURY as a Guy looking for parts for his gun or even a new gun. I have been looking for certain parts and guns all over Canada, Good luck. I have been searching and calling all over. I have found a few nice, polite people, but lots of nasty ones as well. The nasty out ways the nice.
Have I found my parts???? NO!!!
If I want them, I have to order them out of the US. I have not given up searching, but it may be inevitable.
The HUNDRED DOLLAR difference was understandable when our dollar was so low, but for how long can our Canadian Retailers gouge customers? There is a cost to do business, yes we know, but people are tired of paying for it.
We all know you can not run a business with out income, but you can sell 1 item and make a weeks worth of profit or you can sell 100 items and make the same. The thing with volume and decent prices is that it gets around and customers will seek out that retailer. Why do you think the big box stores thrive?
Why in the heck would any-one want to pay twice as much to some-one if they can buy it cheaper elsewhere?
I for one am tired of the RUDE Retailers here in Canada, the lack of inventory, the lack of support and the lack of the lack of parts.

What choice do we have???

We do have laws and we must follow them. There are legal ways to get your products from the US, but if we had better CHOICES in Canada, we wouldn't have to look south to cover our needs.

Food for thought.....

 

[Sharps '63]

Canadian Rights

Canadians do have the right to put up with ####ty service, poor selection and high prices. Or not, and spend their money elsewhere.

Small independent Canadian dealers have often been a valuable source of supply for me due to their low overhead and specialty stocking; willing to go the extra mile to get me what I want. That keeps me coming back, to hell with pricing.

Some larger outfits have had a pretty cavalier attitude that amounts to "This is what we've got to offer; take it or leave it." Sometimes I do, sometimes not, depending on how badly I want it.

Had some Canadian dealer offered to sell me the stock I wanted in the first place, I'd have jumped at it, premium price or not.

Anyway, no need for anyone to get snotty and abusive at the keyboard, saying things we wouldn't say to a man's face. Let's save that for our enemies.

 

[mjohn7]

"If you don't know who ITAR or CGD or DFAIT is are I guess ignorance is bliss."

U.S Program
For practical purposes, ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military related technologies may only be shared with US Persons unless approval from the Department of State is received or a special exemption is used. United States companies can face heavy fines if the Department of State discovers they have, without approval or the use of an exemption, exposed non-US-Persons to ITAR-protected products or information such as designs, test data, processes, software code, etc

Canadian Program
The Controlled Goods Directorate (CGD) is a Federal Government Program administered by the Department of Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC).
The CGD is a domestic industrial security program that helps strengthen Canada's defence trade controls through registration, prevention, deterrence and detection, and prevents the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and of conventional weapons. This is done by regulating and controlling the examination, possession, and transfer in Canada of controlled goods and/or controlled technology. Anyone who deals with controlled goods and/or controlled technology in Canada is required to register with the CGD. The CGD is legislated by the Defence Production Act (DPA) and the Controlled Goods Regulations (CGR).


Foreign Affairs Canada
Ongoing DFAIT Priorities for 2007-2008 (ongoing commitments)
1. A safer, more secure and prosperous Canada within a strengthened North American partnership.
2. Greater economic competitiveness for Canada through enhanced commercial engagement, secure market access and targeted support for Canadian business.
3. Greater international support for freedom and security, democracy, rule of law, human rights and environmental stewardship.
4. Accountable and consistent use of the multilateral system to deliver results on global issues of concern to Canadians.
5. Strengthened services to Canadians, including consular, passport and global commercial activities.
6. Better alignment of departmental resources (human, financial, physical and technological) in support of international policy objectives and program delivery both at home and abroad.

 

[604shooter]

Ibtl

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

"If you don't know who ITAR or CGD or DFAIT is are I guess ignorance is bliss."

U.S Program
For practical purposes, ITAR regulations dictate that information and material pertaining to defense and military related technologies may only be shared with US Persons unless approval from the Department of State is received or a special exemption is used. United States companies can face heavy fines if the Department of State discovers they have, without approval or the use of an exemption, exposed non-US-Persons to ITAR-protected products or information such as designs, test data, processes, software code, etc

Canadian Program
The Controlled Goods Directorate (CGD) is a Federal Government Program administered by the Department of Public Works and Government Services Canada (PWGSC).
The CGD is a domestic industrial security program that helps strengthen Canada's defence trade controls through registration, prevention, deterrence and detection, and prevents the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and of conventional weapons. This is done by regulating and controlling the examination, possession, and transfer in Canada of controlled goods and/or controlled technology. Anyone who deals with controlled goods and/or controlled technology in Canada is required to register with the CGD. The CGD is legislated by the Defence Production Act (DPA) and the Controlled Goods Regulations (CGR).


Foreign Affairs Canada
Ongoing DFAIT Priorities for 2007-2008 (ongoing commitments)
1. A safer, more secure and prosperous Canada within a strengthened North American partnership.
2. Greater economic competitiveness for Canada through enhanced commercial engagement, secure market access and targeted support for Canadian business.
3. Greater international support for freedom and security, democracy, rule of law, human rights and environmental stewardship.
4. Accountable and consistent use of the multilateral system to deliver results on global issues of concern to Canadians.
5. Strengthened services to Canadians, including consular, passport and global commercial activities.
6. Better alignment of departmental resources (human, financial, physical and technological) in support of international policy objectives and program delivery both at home and abroad.

Yup these are the guys who dictate that firearms, parts of firearms and technologies as well as ahost of other items are controlled, by permits, licenses and they get to decide who can have what and what it takes to procure things.
2 are our government agencies who wield great power and have substantial teeth when it comes to enforcement. ITAR is enforced by Dept of State and Homeland Security internationally, BATF domesticly in the US.

 

[jurban]

You are absolutely right! It is everyones right to break any countries laws they please. It is also their right to get themselves "persona non grata " status in the US for getting caught illegally importing/exporting controlled goods ( gun parts for the dumber 1s). Just as it is also their right to have their vehicles seized by Homeland Security during an egress check over $100.00 worth of reloading components.
Not everyone is up on the laws of import/export so I thought I would be a nice guy and explain the facts to them.
If you don't know who ITAR or CGD or DFAIT is are I guess ignorance is bliss.
If you think the likes of Cabelas and Bass Pro are exempt from duties and shipping costs shake your head. They aren't.
I will grant you that due to their large purchasing power they get a far better deal than even the biggest Cdn retailer does, thats just commerce, and when they do get established some shops will be hurt or killed.
If you think that their US prices will be held here, shake your head ALOT!!
Transport costs, wages and in many cases real estate costs are significantly higher in Canada that in most parts of the US, I hope you are not stunned enough to figure even the great Cabelas will just suck up a 20 plus percent difference in wages and overhead.
Goods actually manufactured in the US are duty exempt as per NAFTA, but many goods are not, Nightforce scopes is 1 that comes to mind, there is a 7% duty on them, so unless you plan they use a broker that is willing to get jacked up for lying on the B3 forms that equates to a 7% higher price on the same item when purchased legally here in Canada.
Maybe when all the smaller shops are gone and there is no-one left to bother getting the lower volume sales, or specialty items in or to service your toys, you will begin to understand.
Destroying/defacing currency is also against the law by the way, so I can only surmise you have a broad criminal tendency.

Rick Rick Rick I take it that hundred dollar bill burning didn't go over so well. Must hurt that I can buy a B&C stock in the US and while you have your money and time tied up in your hundreds of bell and carlson stocks that are state side waiting to come to Canada the "legal way". I'm really not worried if your shop goes belly up because I will always be able to get my stuff from the nice little special orders mom and pop shops in the US and greatly reduced prices. Its great that you stock some of the stuff I like and I have been into your shop many months ago and picked up some stuff. But next time you want to play stock police and act all hardcore on here and if I see it I'm just going to repost this pictures as a reminder

 

[Gunslinger]

Destroying/defacing currency is also against the law by the way, so I can only surmise you have a broad criminal tendency.

Cummon you don't really think Sharps'63 has broad criminal tendencies do you? If so I know a mayor in Toronto who could use your help taking the fight to so called legal gun owners, seems you're quite willing to have at them given the opportunity.

 

[gommee]

Canadians do have the right to put up with s**tty service, poor selection and high prices. Or not, and spend their money elsewhere.

That is the choice consumers have. People do it every day looking for the best price for products. One Dealer on here was Rude and wanted to JACK the price up so high that I could drive down to Brownells and bring back the parts with all of the legal paperwork cheaper.

Small independent Canadian dealers have often been a valuable source of supply for me due to their low overhead and specialty stocking; willing to go the extra mile to get me what I want. That keeps me coming back, to hell with pricing.

We all try to support our small independent dealers. Heck, there is one on this site that is the only one that is willing to help me find a specific rifle. If he finds it for me, I will buy it on the spot.
He is one of the only ones that was willing to help me and has been very good to deal with.
Believe me, I have phoned all across the country.

Some larger outfits have had a pretty cavalier attitude that amounts to "This is what we've got to offer; take it or leave it."

You hit the nail right on the head...
Attitude...customer service sucks.


If our retailers had better prices and better customer service, we would not have to find alternative sources.


As for the comment about purchasing cars from the U.S. I can pick up the EXACT vehicle in the U.S. that I can in Canada for Thousands less. Even after all the paperwork dust has settled.

All in all, if Dealers want to charge high markups for their products, people WILL go elsewhere.

FYI: there are reasonable legal ways to purchase parts that you can not find at your local mom and pop stores from the U.S.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Must hurt that I can buy a B&C stock in the US and while you have your money and time tied up in your hundreds of bell and carlson stocks that are state side waiting to come to Canada the "legal way".

Actually I have them in stock, not hundreds, but several

I'm really not worried if your shop goes belly up because I will always be able to get my stuff from the nice little special orders mom and pop shops in the US and greatly reduced prices. Its great that you stock some of the stuff I like and I have been into your shop many months ago and picked up some stuff.

Thats the attitude that is killing the Canadian gun market, you are our worst enemy short of the government

But next time you want to play stock police and act all hardcore on here.

I am not trying to police anything, just inform those who do NOT want to potentially get themselves into trouble with assorted government bodies what the laws are. You do as you please just do NOT whine to anyone when you get screwed by a government for breaking the laws.
As I mentioned I don't like them but have FAR too much to loose to not abide by them, apparently you don't have as much at stake.

:

You may enjoy some new found attention at the border.

 

[Sharps '63]

Broad Criminal Tendencies?

Me - "Broad criminal tendencies"? I think not, and I doubt that term would apply to many subscribers of this list.
I do admit to exceeding the speed limit on the isolated rural roads around here. Even so, most of the red necks in big pick ups glare at me as they roar past .... the guys are even worse.

As for burning up $100 bills, to spite a local dealer, some years back, three of us once drove from Merritt to a gun shop in Vernon who gave us a better deal on what we wanted.
That was before gas prices went through the roof, but it was worth every dollar in gas money, just for the principle, and I'd do it again today.

Same for locals who won't match advertised prices in Canadian gun publications. I'd rather pay the S&H charges.

 

[Mad_Mikee]

I think that this is one of those issues that doesnt really have a perfect solution.

First off, everyone here on CGN should just get along. We dont all have the same ideas and beliefs but there is no need to start attacking each other. We're all gun guys/girls here.

I stopped by Alberta Tactical Rifle a few nights ago to pick up some Gun Juice and I had a chance to have a quick chat with Rick and another guy (dont remember his name). Either way, both seemed like really great guys. We had a chat, I told them about my new gun, plans for it, etc and everythign was fine. Rick made mention of this particular post to me in person and I do see merit in both sides of the story.

Rick is in business to make money. For that to happen he has to be able to aquire products within a reasonable ammount of time and for a discounted amount of money. The sad part is that he (and other dealers as well I'm sure) get yanked around with the legal games they need to play in order to get their products into the country. The extra costs get passed along to the customer which unfortunately is bad for Rick and bad for the customer.

While chatting with Rick I indicated that I had just purchased a trigger directly from the manufacturer in the US after being unsuccessful in finding one in Canada. Sure some stores were useless in helping me but there were just as many good ones that went out of their way to try and help me. Like most others, I would have purchased my trigger within Canada if I was able to find one. That being said, it would have to be reasonably priced.

I mentioned that I found it always disappointing that firearms, parts, reloading componets, etc are so hard to find. The scarey thing is you can go and buy drugs on the street easier that you can buy (if you can find them) a pack of Federal primers. One thing that Rick did say which I found interesting was that a Remington rep once told him that Canada makes up only 4% (think I got the number right) of Remingtons anual sales. It does suck for Canadians that we're low on the totem pole when it comes to getting stock from manufacturers but it does makes sence from a sales/revenue point of view. If you had a business, you'd focus your efforts/service/products on the markets where your cash-cow (USA) is and give the other markets a lower level attention.

I like everyone else have an opinion but its only that; an opinion. I love love nothing more than for shops like ATR to be able to get in inventory quickly and at a similar price to what we can aquire parts/accessories/firearms/etc from in the USA. Chances of that are slim, not becuase of the shops wanting to gouge their customers but because of he higher costs associated with them doing business in the Canadian market.

My personal opinion is that I do try to buy from Canada first. Rick said that it frustrated him that people buy from the US and then come in and talk with him about service on their product. His time is worth money as he's running a business. If you dont buy your products from him, its hard to expect a bunch of his time in trying to solve your problems.

I dont have a perfect solution and I'm certainly no better than anyone else here. I work hard for my money so I'm careful where I spend it.

The one thing I do want to end with is that I was appreciative of Rick and the other guy (still cant remeber his name), spending time talking with me. I only spent $50 at his shop but he found time to chat with me which was nice. I didnt have to take a number, wait in line or listen to opinions from a bunch of bozos (like at WSS). Im not going to promise I'll buy all my firearms related stuff in Canada but for those things that you do expect to come with service (rifles, smithing, etc), my business will stay here.

 

[wcmd]

Well said!!!!

 

[Leeper]

In the end, there are a couple of ways to handle this.
If you wish to use American products, do so. If you notice your buddy has a new barrel, scope, box of bullets etc., DON"T ASK where he got them. If you have recently acquired a new barrel, scope, box of bullets, etc., DON'T TELL where and how you acquired them. This way, nobody is offended and nobody is put on the spot.
An even better way to deal with the problem is to avoid the use of American products wherever possible. Then you don't have to worry about it.
If we really want something to ##### about, the cost of Canadian made IMR powders would be a good topic. Regards, Bill.

 

[gommee]

well said...let's move on and play nice.

We can all be friends again.

 

[wheels]

"I'm really not worried if your shop goes belly up because I will always be able to get my stuff from the nice little special orders mom and pop shops in the US and greatly reduced prices"


You are a complete goofball (and that's the nicest way of putting it). So you will ALWAYS be able to order everything from the U.S? Is that what your crystal ball tells you?? I like to find deals as much as the next guy and I value the money that I work hard for, but your position is simply childish and absurd.

 

[Steve David]

Rick Rick Rick I take it that hundred dollar bill burning didn't go over so well. Must hurt that I can buy a B&C stock in the US and while you have your money and time tied up in your hundreds of bell and carlson stocks that are state side waiting to come to Canada the "legal way". I'm really not worried if your shop goes belly up because I will always be able to get my stuff from the nice little special orders mom and pop shops in the US and greatly reduced prices. Its great that you stock some of the stuff I like and I have been into your shop many months ago and picked up some stuff. But next time you want to play stock police and act all hardcore on here and if I see it I'm just going to repost this pictures as a reminder

The bottom line is you are endorsing and promoting illegal activities, and as far as I know and have been told, that is a no no on CGN. I am surprised that no mods or admins have jumped on this one yet?

Further more, Rick is 100% correct, you get dinged just once by US or Canada Customs coming back in , guess what, you ain't brining nothing back from the US my friend, ever...! Oh yah, and then you will be the owned one.....................!

It is all fine and dandy that we go over the border and buy things, I do, you do, hell we all do it, but when it comes to controlled good like this particular item, personally I would spend the extra, which in the end will not be as much as assumed due to taxes and duty that you will be charged contrary to popular belief, but also the item would be purchased from a stocking dealer here in Canada who if you ever have a problem, can either repair or replace it much quicker then you could, either having to take it back to the US your self or trying to get it shipped back and proving it was yours which is what you would have to do.

 

[GunBoy]

It alright to spend money from little retailer if they do bring it product, and supporting them is a good thing, because if you don't then they won't be around for long, but the thing that dislike about it the most is that they tent to brag about how low they make, when they don't have as much over head as other place like P&D, wholesales, I was talking to Rick Side kick way back several month ago, and he said that how he would make around $50 for each stock they have order, and going on about how difficult it is to order stuff into Canada from the US. It quite Dishonest the way he trampling on about it.

 

[Obtunded]

Personally, if I were going to participate in activities such as those described by the thread author, the last bloody thing I would do is tell everyone about it on the internet. There is already one well-known member of CGN that has had his computer seized by the RCMP in connection with activities relating to the importation and sale of firearms items. From what I understand he is in VERY hot water.

The other thing to remember is that it takes nothing to drop a dime on a company that is illegally shipping to Canada. You are greatly increasing your own chances of landing smack dab in the middle of it by stirring the pot here and boasting about it.

 

[Sharps '63]

Quit

OK, enough already.

As the originator of the thread, can I call a halt to this fruitless pursuit?
Let's focus on enjoying the guns we've got left, support each other in that pursuit and save our vitriolic rhetoric for our common enemies.

I have since fallen all over myself in apology and reparation for my sin. My computer has yet to be seized and the ERT team has not yet kicked in the door. Nor have the moderators slapped my pee-pee. Sorry to disappoint those who obviously think it would be a good idea.

Canadian dealers have issues and problems in meeting the demands of their customers for reasons beyond their control. Customers in turn have their problems with dealers, pricing and product availability.

'Nuff said - we are all the victims of the system we are unable or unwilling to change.