What can go wrong with loading below Min. charge. I can understand that if you go too far below, you might not get consistant ignition, but beyond that I have no idea what might work. Reason I ask is my groups with my 17 seem to shrink as I lower the charge, but I am down to the minimum and I want to try less. I'm talking 23 grains 4895, so the case is nearly full anyways. Can anyone give me some more info on light loads?
Below min. charge.
- Thread starter 17asleep
- Start date
Here some ideas to consider re light loads.
If they are too light then the bullet may not exit the barrel or velocities may fluctuate.
Once the powder is too low then when you hold the rifle level, there is an air gap along the top of the powder in the case . This can cause the powder to flash along the entire top rather than start at the primer. There was a theory ( never proven to my knowledge ) that light loads in .38 specials caused dangerously high pressures because of this.
I am not a ballistician but they must have minimum loads for a reason.
I am also wondering why you are getting better accuracy with lighter loads. Usually the most accurate seem to be about in the middle.
Lets see what others have to say because I am no expert.
If they are too light then the bullet may not exit the barrel or velocities may fluctuate.
Once the powder is too low then when you hold the rifle level, there is an air gap along the top of the powder in the case . This can cause the powder to flash along the entire top rather than start at the primer. There was a theory ( never proven to my knowledge ) that light loads in .38 specials caused dangerously high pressures because of this.
I am not a ballistician but they must have minimum loads for a reason.
I am also wondering why you are getting better accuracy with lighter loads. Usually the most accurate seem to be about in the middle.
Lets see what others have to say because I am no expert.
It screws with powder burn rates. Rifle powders are optimized to burn at a specific range of pressures. Go too low, and things get unpredictable.
You could switch to a faster powder to keep pressures more consistent, but good luck finding data.
But even with a faster powder, things can sometimes be unpredictable when there's a lot of empty space in the case. Some powders are more position sensitive than others, and some ignite easier than others as well.
Search around for 'blue dot' reduced loads. Blue dot is relatively position insensitive, and bulky so it does a good job of filling a case. It's also a flake powder meaning it ignites easily. At around 50% load density it seems to do reasonably well in a lot of rifle applications. But, be aware that you're coloring outside the lines so be very careful.
Anyway, you might do well to consider a different powder. 4064, varget, 4320, 335 and others work well in the 17
You could switch to a faster powder to keep pressures more consistent, but good luck finding data.
But even with a faster powder, things can sometimes be unpredictable when there's a lot of empty space in the case. Some powders are more position sensitive than others, and some ignite easier than others as well.
Search around for 'blue dot' reduced loads. Blue dot is relatively position insensitive, and bulky so it does a good job of filling a case. It's also a flake powder meaning it ignites easily. At around 50% load density it seems to do reasonably well in a lot of rifle applications. But, be aware that you're coloring outside the lines so be very careful.
Anyway, you might do well to consider a different powder. 4064, varget, 4320, 335 and others work well in the 17
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Experiment
I guess I grew up with a different breed of handloaders. When I started out, anyone wondering how less powder would perform, would just try it. I have loaded a 270 so light that I could shoot it in the basement and I doubt if it made as much noise as a 22. We tried several types of powder, from fast to fairly slow. We tried it with stuffing anything from corn starch to toilet paper on top of the powder, or with maybe 5 grains of powder with nothing else in a 30-06. We experimented with holding the rifle upright, level or even pointed downhill. As I remember every one made an appropriate bang!
With some of the combinations a very accurate load would be obtained.
Just use common sense and make handloading an enjoyable hobby. And did anything dire come from all our experiments? The worst thing I ever heard of was having a bullet stick in the barrel. Ends your shooting while you stand your rifle up, pour Hoppes #9 down the barrel, then next morning push the bullet out with a wooden dowl, of a proper cleaning rod.
I guess I grew up with a different breed of handloaders. When I started out, anyone wondering how less powder would perform, would just try it. I have loaded a 270 so light that I could shoot it in the basement and I doubt if it made as much noise as a 22. We tried several types of powder, from fast to fairly slow. We tried it with stuffing anything from corn starch to toilet paper on top of the powder, or with maybe 5 grains of powder with nothing else in a 30-06. We experimented with holding the rifle upright, level or even pointed downhill. As I remember every one made an appropriate bang!
With some of the combinations a very accurate load would be obtained.
Just use common sense and make handloading an enjoyable hobby. And did anything dire come from all our experiments? The worst thing I ever heard of was having a bullet stick in the barrel. Ends your shooting while you stand your rifle up, pour Hoppes #9 down the barrel, then next morning push the bullet out with a wooden dowl, of a proper cleaning rod.
This is an interesting thread (thanks, 17asleep), as I was hoping to load "light" .44 special loads into .44 mag brass. Most of my shooting will be short range at paper.
AS H4831 pointed out, I know a few guys who've done some unconventional stuff with no setbacks. Just lucky, maybe?
One guy I hunted with years ago made a load for his 30-06 to take grouse out.
He used a .22LR empty as his scoop, and pressed in a .30 cal ball. It put more than a few grouse on the table, and didn't make too much of a bang.
Ad I'm just getting into reloading, anything you add to this thread will be welcome
AS H4831 pointed out, I know a few guys who've done some unconventional stuff with no setbacks. Just lucky, maybe?
One guy I hunted with years ago made a load for his 30-06 to take grouse out.
He used a .22LR empty as his scoop, and pressed in a .30 cal ball. It put more than a few grouse on the table, and didn't make too much of a bang.
Ad I'm just getting into reloading, anything you add to this thread will be welcome
blacksmithden
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I loaded quite a few different light loads for my 44 mag. Like H4831 said. The worst thing to hapen was a failed ignition and having to use a dowel to hammer the bullet back out of the barrel.
There seems to be 3 different reactions to loading light.
1. Normal bang...reduced recoil....bullet reaches the target at high speed.
2. A deep sounding pop...little/no recoil....does get some kind of half assed powder ignition but not a bang......bullet goes 25 meters at about the speed of a 177 cal pellet gun.....completely useless shot
3. A hollow sounding pop. Primer pressure only......discoloured but not really burnt powder lining the inside of the barrel with a fair bit of it loose.....bullet winds up anywhere from 1/2" to 2" down the barrel and has to be pushed back out with a wooden dowel.
I think I had WIN231 (might have been WIN296) down to 17 grains under a 240 cast bullet when things started to go downhill. I'll see if I can confirm the exact load. The only powder log I keep is in the good ol' brain box, but I do write down the charge on the side of the cartridge case. I'll check what my lightest loads were. I didn't place any kind of wadding under the bullet to try and keep the powder in front of the primer........might be a good idea to try.
There seems to be 3 different reactions to loading light.
1. Normal bang...reduced recoil....bullet reaches the target at high speed.
2. A deep sounding pop...little/no recoil....does get some kind of half assed powder ignition but not a bang......bullet goes 25 meters at about the speed of a 177 cal pellet gun.....completely useless shot
3. A hollow sounding pop. Primer pressure only......discoloured but not really burnt powder lining the inside of the barrel with a fair bit of it loose.....bullet winds up anywhere from 1/2" to 2" down the barrel and has to be pushed back out with a wooden dowel.
I think I had WIN231 (might have been WIN296) down to 17 grains under a 240 cast bullet when things started to go downhill. I'll see if I can confirm the exact load. The only powder log I keep is in the good ol' brain box, but I do write down the charge on the side of the cartridge case. I'll check what my lightest loads were. I didn't place any kind of wadding under the bullet to try and keep the powder in front of the primer........might be a good idea to try.
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Which Powder?
Denny, that must have been W296 you tried with 17 grains.
MAXIMUM LOAD OF W231 IN A 44 MAG IS 11 GRAINS.
10 grains of W231 gave about 1000 fps in my 7½ inch Ruger and had very little deviation, low to high. I think this is an excellent powder for light, or very light, loads in the 44 mag, but so is Unique, which seems to be very similar in burning rate. EXTREME CARE must be used with any fast burning powder, to ensure that a double load is never loaded into a case, if you are using near the maximum amount of the powder.
Winchester states their W296 is not to be loaded less than full power, which is 24 grains in the 44 mag. W296 is probably identical to H110. I have done considerable experimenting with H110. It seems to have been used for light loads as much as any other powder. In the 44 mag I found it to be an excellent full power load, at about 24 grains, as well as various mid power loads. Elmer Keith developed the 44 mag, using Hercules 2400 as the standard powder. All his loadings show 22 grains as the standard, full power load. In my guns 22 grains seems plenty heavy, so I usually load 21, which is an accurate load.
I got about 1450 fps with that load in the Ruger, very similar to 24 grains of
H110, or W296.
Denny, that must have been W296 you tried with 17 grains.
MAXIMUM LOAD OF W231 IN A 44 MAG IS 11 GRAINS.
10 grains of W231 gave about 1000 fps in my 7½ inch Ruger and had very little deviation, low to high. I think this is an excellent powder for light, or very light, loads in the 44 mag, but so is Unique, which seems to be very similar in burning rate. EXTREME CARE must be used with any fast burning powder, to ensure that a double load is never loaded into a case, if you are using near the maximum amount of the powder.
Winchester states their W296 is not to be loaded less than full power, which is 24 grains in the 44 mag. W296 is probably identical to H110. I have done considerable experimenting with H110. It seems to have been used for light loads as much as any other powder. In the 44 mag I found it to be an excellent full power load, at about 24 grains, as well as various mid power loads. Elmer Keith developed the 44 mag, using Hercules 2400 as the standard powder. All his loadings show 22 grains as the standard, full power load. In my guns 22 grains seems plenty heavy, so I usually load 21, which is an accurate load.
I got about 1450 fps with that load in the Ruger, very similar to 24 grains of
H110, or W296.
blacksmithden
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You're right Bruce. I dug though my box of empties and it was WIN296 at 17 grains I was having trouble with. Fired a bunch at 17, 20, 24, and 25 grains (25 being the never exceed in the Lee manual). 20 worked ok, but 17 started to choke on quite a few shots.
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- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I think those of us who learned our trade in this manner became far more knowledgeable. I discovered that a stuck bullet can be hydraulic-ed out of the barrel by filling the barrel with water behind the bullet, then firing a primer over it, in one or two attempts the bullet will jump out, and it's a good idea to have a soft surface for it to land on to prevent it from bouncing around.
I would like to address what some have incorrectly referred to as a "detonation", refering to a rare phenomenon caused by the light loading of slow burning powder in large capacity bottle neck cases, resulting in damaged rifles and injured shooters. Propellants cannot produce greater chemical energy regardless of how they are confined. You will experience a much more unpleasant effect if you were to load a 30/378 with a compressed load of Bullseye than you would loading it with 10 grs grains of H-870. A detonation is a specific chemical reaction that is defined by the presence of a shock wave. Propellants for small arms cannot detonate as they cannot attain the velocity of detonation (VOD, the speed by which a reaction moves through a column of explosive) necessary to produce a shock wave (greater than 5000 fps). Any reaction slower than 5000 fps is a deflagaration (a rapid burning). The best assessment as to what happens when a rifle is destroyed by a light load of slow burning powder can be found in PO Ackley's Handbook to Reloading. He agrees that the phenomenon occurs, but that it is very difficult to replicate in a controlled environment. What appears to happen is that the small column of powder, under the force of the primer's explosion, is driven forward and tightly compacted at the base of the bullet, and if the column of powder is large enough to extend to the shoulder of the cartridge a dense plug is effectively formed. A small portion of the powder charge ignites, releases it's gas energy, and due to the plug, the gas energy builds rapidly until it exceeds the strength of the rifle chamber. This makes a lot more sense than the suggestion that a rifle cartridge detonates.
Now that we understand the cause we can take steps to prevent the occurrence of a plug. The decision not to use light loads of slow burning powder in bottle neck cases is most prudent. If you do choose to experiment, take steps to ensure the powder is against the base of the cartridge when you fire, rather than spread along it's length. Holding the powder column in place with a inert material would help.
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It's also been suggested that the nitroglycerin in most ball and pistol powders can be induced to detonate under the right conditions. (unlike nitrocellulose, nitroglycerin IS a real explosive, and can detonate as opposed to deflagrate). Although the nitroglycerin is stabilized when it's combined with the rest of the ingredients, it is the only component of smokeless powder than can produce a genuine detonation.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Nitroglycerin's sensitivity can be controlled to the extent that it is nearly inert. When Nobel was producing the stuff, it was killing so many of his workers that his reputation was in danger. When he added kieselgur to the oil (NG is an oily substance) it became safe enough to handle and we know that mixture today as dynamite. Today there are many different grades and many different recipes for dynamite, some of which are even NG free. Prior to dynamite, the Swedes used to mix NG with alcohol which made it safe to pour into bore holes drilled deep into rock. They then added water to the mixture, and causing the alcohol to float and the NG to sink below the water, and the NG could then be detonated.
The point is that the mere presence of NG in a propellant does not effect the propellant's VOD beyond being a low explosive, nor it's sensitivity to shock. Smokeless powder for use in firearms may explode, but it does not detonate, regardless of it's chemical formulation.
So can I assume that a true .44 special load in a magnum case is not adviseable?
A quick check shows that most powder loads show anywhere from 6 to 10 grains (some as low as 4, others as high as 16).
And what about the idea of using a wad of some sort to ensure powder stays tight to the primer hole?
Why am I after this? I want to get some nice light loads for my wife to be shot out of a rifle.
Sorry if this seems exceedingly dumb, but I'm newer than new to reloading, and the above scenario is one of my reasons for getting into this hobby!
