Beowulf mag

[Randomized]

I've been searching for about an hour now but there was a thread I came across a while ago where a cgn member that is a lawyer posted the criminal code and explanation/defense he used for the Beowulf mags. I screen shot it but lost my phone and never backed it up. Does anyone know what thread I am talking about?

 

[aragorn1]

I don't know about that thread, sorry, but as long as the mag is stamped Beowolf 50 you are good to go. The law states that the limit pertains to the gun that the magazine was built for. Since the mag is for the Beowolf 50 handgun it is ok to use. That's why we now have the issue with the 10/22 mags, they were actually designed for a Ruger handgun, hence the 10 round limit in Canada.

Ill informed and too quick to spout off....... I submit myself to the court lol
I was confused with the LAR Pistol. I have a bunch of LAR mags I use, Next time Ill zip it

 

[Ottawa]

There is a lawyer who knows his stuff. An Ottawa guy. He has like a Hollywood name Salmon Freedman or something? Are you in trouble?

 

[jdx23]

There is a lawyer who knows his stuff. An Ottawa guy. He has like a Hollywood name Salmon Freedman or something? Are you in trouble?

Solomon Friedman is a criminal defence lawyer in Ottawa that specializes in firearms law

 

[Randomized]

No, I'm not in any trouble but thanks for expressing your concern. I always used to keep it on my phone in case I ever did get any guff from the rcmp or anything. I liked having it easily accessible to reference. I will keep looking and post it when/if I do find it!

 

[mikethebike]

I would go further on this and actually state that if you are using the original AA Beowulf Mags you are the safest to go when it comes to beowulf.

Some peoplehere might find that excessive, but when it comes to intent of the original design and manufacture cant go wrong than with the product by the company that invented .50 beowulf and that states on their website that it will not feed anything but .50 beowulf

AA is the original inventor of .50 Beowulf.

Best to be safer than sorryer these days.

 

[Ottawa]

Section 8 of the charter is important regarding search. Always refuse. If they search without a warrant it's automatic dismissal, even if you had a dozen RPGs in the trunk. I have those mags too also have 40 cal Baby eagle mags for my 9mm CZ Shadow

 

[Ottawa]

I agree with Mike the Bike 100% on those mag. My plastic ones suck. Mind you I dremel'd them to fit in my Benelli MR1

 

[cr5]

I don't know about that thread, sorry, but as long as the mag is stamped Beowolf 50 you are good to go. The law states that the limit pertains to the gun that the magazine was built for. Since the mag is for the Beowolf 50 handgun it is ok to use. That's why we now have the issue with the 10/22 mags, they were actually designed for a Ruger handgun, hence the 10 round limit in Canada.

There is no 50 Beowulf pistol. The magazines must be pinned to hold 5 rounds of 50 Beowulf. If pinned correctly to 5.9 rounds (meaning you can almost put in 6 but it won't actually hold 6 cartridges) it will also hold 15-16 rounds of 223/5.56 and was kinda legal to use in your 223 since it was designed for the 50 Beowulf rifle and holds 5 rounds of that cartridge. As Brian points out below they are making them prohibited and have already released a bulletin closing the loophole.
The problem with running Beowulf mags is that many police officers will arrest you and confiscate your rifles and magazines if they see you using magazines that hold more than five rounds. Even though you may win in court with a good lawyer and you may get your property back it is not going to be a fun time for you while going through the system.

The only way this is comparable to the Ruger 10/22 magazine issue is that it is a legal loophole that they closed.
The Ruger issue is that the magazines were designed for the 10/22 rifle and the 10/22 Charger pistol and are therefore limited to 10 rounds. This is why the 10+ round magazines for other rimfire rifles are still legal but the ones for the 10/22 are not.

Our magazine capacity laws are stupid and don't make anyone safer but regardless they are the laws we have to live with, if we find ways to get around them the RCMP and government will find ways to close those loopholes. Ive been saying for a long time that rather than wasting a bunch of money on these magazines we should be donating the money to groups like CSSA and the NFA to fight for our right to full capacity magazines again.

 

[Brian46]

The RCMP has made their opinion clear on these mags a number of times, they have even edited the FRT entries for the rifles chambered in 50 beowulf.

If you have access to the FRT table, you can look up #121656. it is the number for a 50 Beowulf rifle, But to save you some time:

The "Canadian Law Comments" section says for FRT #121656.

In the case of AR platform rifles chambered for the 50 Beowulf calibre, the magazine is adapted from the original 5.56x45 NATO version of the magazine but the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaption. As a result such magazines are prohibited if they contain more than five 5.56x45 NATO cartridges. The magazines are in effect dual calibre magazines and are prohibited if they exceed five shots capacity of either calibre. An AR platform magazine limited to no more than five 5.56x45 NATO (223 Remington) cartridges will hold no more than two 50 Beowulf cartridges

.

SFSS letter

The 50 Beowulf Magazine
In the case of AR platform rifles chambered for 50 Beowulf calibre, the magazine is adapted from the original 5.56x45 NATO version of the magazine, generally by one or more of the following: widening the space between the magazine lips, changing the angle of the magazine lips and changing the feed angle of the magazine follower. The adaptations more efficiently feed the much larger diameter 50 Beowulf calibre cartridge. However, the original ability to contain and feed 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges has not been deleted and the magazines remain serviceable for that purpose.
The 50 Beowulf cartridge is centrefire and the AR platform rifles which use that calibre are semiautomatic. Thus, cartridge magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre firearms are prohibited if more than five 50 Beowulf cartridges can be contained in the magazine (subparagraph ii, as above).
Magazines for the AR platform which contain four or five 50 Beowulf calibre cartridges present a more complicated situation. Such magazines will generally contain 11 and 14 cartridges respectively of 5.56x45 mm NATO (or 223 Remington) calibre. Since the 50 Beowulf calibre magazines are adapted from the original 5.56x45 mm NATO design and the ability of the magazine to perform as originally designed has not been compromised by the adaptation, such magazines are prohibited if they contain more than five 5.56x45 mm NATO cartridges. The magazines are in effect dual calibre magazines and will be prohibited if they exceed five shots capacity of either calibre.
Magazines have recently been manufactured in, or imported into Canada bearing markings suggesting they are exclusively designed for 50 Beowulf ammunition, and at four or five shot capacity, are non-prohibited magazines. This is simply not the case. All magazines for 50 Beowulf calibre AR platform firearms presently on the Canadian market are prohibited devices.
AR Platform Upper Receivers
You had also asked about 50 Beowulf calibre AR upper receivers. Your understanding is correct that they are not prohibited.

Yours Sincerely,
Manager,
Specialized Firearms Support Services
Firearms Investigative and Enforcement Support Services Directorate
Canadian Firearms Program
Specialized Policing

Best to be informed as to what you are up against if stopped while in posession of these magazines

 

[Komodo]

Ottawa - search and seizure two different things . May not be able to convict because of unlawful search but the seizure would stand. A court is not going to tell the police to return your RPG's just because search was illegal. Then try to get your RPAL/PAL renewed.

 

[Ottawa]

Ottawa - search and seizure two different things . May not be able to convict because of unlawful search but the seizure would stand. A court is not going to tell the police to return prohibited RPG's if they were found just because search was illegal. Then try to get your RPAL/PAL renewed.

Look that is obvious come on. As for RPAL renewal yes I think they would still renew. IIRC rocket and grenade launchers are all legal in Canada, the munitions are regulated under parks Canada. As for Beowulf they have been returned by the police. Never give permission to anyone to search you or your car. This isn't 1930s Germany.

 

[Komodo]

Ok thought u meant RPG's rocket propelled grenades . didnt know u meant the launchers. Munitions are registered under "parks Canada"? Point I was making. If the police search your car illegally and they find prohibited items. You may escape conviction but the prohibited items are not returned just because search was deemed a violation of your rights. I think if the CFC found out that you had prohibited items that were firearms related seized despite an acquital I think you would have a hard time getting you RPAL/PAL renewed.

 

[Ottawa]

Ok thought u meant RPG's rocket propelled grenades . didnt know u meant the launchers. Munitions are registered under "parks Canada"?

It's all good we are just blabbing... FYI I rarely get angry. Plus I am NO expert in any of this and will never claim to be.

 

[Ottawa]

It's use to be parks Canada for Cannon rounds years ago, I think anything larger than 1 inch is not under the firearms act, outside of C68 we have pretty loose weapons laws, Canadians can own all kinds of stuff, that American's can't own.

 

[mikethebike]

The RCMP has made their opinion clear on these mags a number of times, they have even edited the FRT entries for the rifles chambered in 50 beowulf.

.

SFSS letter


Best to be informed as to what you are up against if stopped while in posession of these magazines

rcmp cannot comment on wether the magazine was adapted from an ar15 magazine, only the inventor holding the patent can do that which is AA and they specifically state that their magazines will not feed anything but 50 beowulf.

The rcmp can state whatever opinion they want and so can I, there is no provision in the law for dual use. Under the current law a magazine can have only one use, and manufactured and designed for only one intent. i.e. If It is a 50 Beowulf magazine it cannot ever be anything else than a 50 beowulf magazine. If it is a 556/223 magazine it cannot ever be anything else than a 556/223 magazine. If it is a 40 calibre magazine it cannot ever be anything else thn a 40 calibre magazine.

As with other games the rcmp is playing right now, we'll see when this goes to court and what evidence and witnesses will be presented. I bet you 95% the judge will side on the least restrictive side of the law and on the exact wording of the law, not rcmp opinions.

This is a criminal statute, in Canada criminal charges are a whole lot more serious to prove. And when the rcmp and the crown get together for their elitist bourgeois taxpayer paid golf games, cocktail parties with the Trudeau and what ever else paid by the taxpayer and discuss this, they'll drop the charges.

Trust me the rcmp is more scared than us that this will go to court as it can most definately go against their so called expert opinion, and then the whole castle of cards comes thumbling down.

In the meantime enjoy your beowulfs at the range.

 

[Ottawa]

This is all push back for the AR reclassification petition . All of you, have no doubt that the Petition had these guys in a fncking hissy fit. They would have to explain all of this to Goodale and explain why the AR is not unrestricted... Trust me this lit a fire under their a$$es .

 

[Brian46]

rcmp cannot comment on wether the magazine was adapted from an ar15 magazine, only the inventor holding the patent can do that which is AA and they specifically state that their magazines will not feed anything but 50 beowulf.

The rcmp can state whatever opinion they want and so can I, there is no provision in the law for dual use. Under the current law a magazine can have only one use, and manufactured and designed for only one intent. i.e. If It is a 50 Beowulf magazine it cannot ever be anything else than a 50 beowulf magazine. If it is a 556/223 magazine it cannot ever be anything else than a 556/223 magazine. If it is a 40 calibre magazine it cannot ever be anything else thn a 40 calibre magazine.

As with other games the rcmp is playing right now, we'll see when this goes to court and what evidence and witnesses will be presented. I bet you 95% the judge will side on the least restrictive side of the law and on the exact wording of the law, not rcmp opinions.

This is a criminal statute, in Canada criminal charges are a whole lot more serious to prove. And when the rcmp and the crown get together for their elitist bourgeois taxpayer paid golf games, cocktail parties with the Trudeau and what ever else paid by the taxpayer and discuss this, they'll drop the charges.

Trust me the rcmp is more scared than us that this will go to court as it can most definately go against their so called expert opinion, and then the whole castle of cards comes thumbling down.

In the meantime enjoy your beowulfs at the range.

The RCMP are only getting started, how they will implement their findings is yet to be seen beyond what they have already done, but with full authority on all gun legalities in Canada being handed to them by our current government, you can bet their opinions will be made "law" soon enough negating any argument over who's opinion is correct in the event someone is charged and brought before the courts.

It will likely be part of or in conjunction with the current government undoing C-42 which is already in the works as promised.

 

[cancer]

The RCMP are only getting started, how they will implement their findings is yet to be seen beyond what they have already done, but with full authority on all gun legalities in Canada being handed to them by our current government, you can bet their opinions will be made "law" soon enough negating any argument over who's opinion is correct in the event someone is charged and brought before the courts.

It will likely be part of or in conjunction with the current government undoing C-42 which is already in the works as promised.

I wouldn't be surprised if you were right. The RCMP have made it clear that they have no intention of following the letter of the law. They have made up terms like "dual-use" and they avoid very clear conditions of the law, like "manufacturer's intent". They really don't want Beowulf magazines in the public's hands. It would have been easier if they had argued they were good-to-go, even Mr. Etter at the RCMP originally approved them, but his replacement Mr. Smith was not keen to keep the status quo and developed these new terms to maintain some political idea, even if it flew right in the face of previous decisions about 9mm vs 40SW mags and so on. The question I'd like to know the answer to is: who is really behind the anti-beowulf push? Is it solely the firearms lab, or does it go higher?

Regardless, I suspect that the rhetoric is just a band-aid for now and the real fix will come when the Liberals start tinkering with the Criminal Code. It won't take long. I wouldn't be surprised if a final draft of something to strip our historic sporting culture (our nation was founded on the hunting and fishing industries) from us is already finished and waiting in a filing cabinet until another mass shooting happens, just so knee-jerk politics can carry it though the house.

 

[cdm123]

I just wonder when it all goes for sh!t how many sheeple will hand every thing over and climb in the cruiser?