Beretta A400 Cycling Issues

Stop cleaning it every time you shoot it. A 400's can go well over 1000 rounds before you need to clean them. Go out and buy 20-25 rounds of 3 inch slugs, put in your IC choke and break the gun in. Your gun may still need 3 dram loads to help it function until you get a couple thousand rounds through it. For 3 dram load run a few flats of Challenger handicap.
I don't know why everyone is slagging Challenger ammo. The clubs that I shoot at about 8 out of 10 shooters that are not shooting reloads are using them.
 
maynard said:
Stop cleaning it every time you shoot it. A 400's can go well over 1000 rounds before you need to clean them. Go out and buy 20-25 rounds of 3 inch slugs, put in your IC choke and break the gun in. Your gun may still need 3 dram loads to help it function until you get a couple thousand rounds through it. For 3 dram load run a few flats of Challenger handicap.
I don't know why everyone is slagging Challenger ammo. The clubs that I shoot at about 8 out of 10 shooters that are not shooting reloads are using them.
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I agree.

Funny thing is when I reached out to Stoeger about my issues (bear in mind the gun only had ~250 rounds on it at this point) and sent a picture of the internals literally the only thing they said was "what I can tell you from the picture is your piston is very dirty"

I politely explained that it only had 250 rounds at that point and that was a very low round count as I have almost shot this much in a day. I went that I had since deep cleaned the gun and, like when it was brand new and perfectly clean, it still would not run.

Crickets.
 
maynard said:
Stop cleaning it every time you shoot it. A 400's can go well over 1000 rounds before you need to clean them. Go out and buy 20-25 rounds of 3 inch slugs, put in your IC choke and break the gun in. Your gun may still need 3 dram loads to help it function until you get a couple thousand rounds through it. For 3 dram load run a few flats of Challenger handicap.
I don't know why everyone is slagging Challenger ammo. The clubs that I shoot at about 8 out of 10 shooters that are not shooting reloads are using them.
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Not all Challenger has been bad for me. I have some Handicap from ages ago and it seems to run fine:

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But I also have some of this Target Challenger and it turns two of my semis into bolt actions:

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This Rio is my go to, had the best success with it by far:

1771984703768.jpeg
 
The Challenger Handicap and Rio's are 3 dram loads, the Challenger target loads are 2 3/4 dram loads. With your gun being a 3 1/2" gun it may need 3 dram loads to cycle reliably regardless of what Beretta says. Back when I was looking for an autoloader it was a toss up betweem the A400 and a Benelli SBE. Benelli recommended running 3 dram loads for proper function, this was a 3 1/2" gun. Since I didn't want to shoot 3 dram loads for skeet and sporting clays I went the Beretta route in a 3" Xplor model.
 
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At least 75% of the factory loads used at our club are Challenger, because they are readily available, and cheaper than most other brands. The Challenger 3 dram loads seem to function well in all semi autos at our club, the lighter loads do cause issues in some. My 3-1/2" SX-3 would usually have 1-2 issues out of 100 shots, with the light loads, and was flawless with the 3 dram loads. My 3" SX-3 was flawless with any load that I have tried. My 3-1/2" Maxus is also perfect with any load. We only have a couple of A400s, and both are target guns, and run any load perfectly. I break in any semi auto, by cleaning and lubing it, then cycling it manually a few hundred times, as I watch television, and I haven't had the issues that some people have with new semi autos.
 
OP - The gas compensating mechanisms in modern shotguns are not perfect, they have limited compensating abilities. Accordingly, a 3 inch chambered gun has inherent advantage shooting target loads over a 3 1/2 inch gun due to gas port size. (You've touched upon this matter.) So if your gun has a source of additional friction, the compensating system can be overwhelmed when using light loads ( eg 2 3/4 drams). At the top of the list is chamber friction which can be caused by a rough surface finish, burrs and tapers, etc. A compounding problem occurs with shells employing steel bases are left in a high state of compressive hoop stress after firing, causing the hull, to stick in the chamber after firing (think shrink fit). This is dependent upon chamber diameter, steel base steel spec, and combustion pressure. (True brass heads are less prone to this issue due to the low yield stress of brass.)
If your problem is chamber friction, you might be able to confirm this by looking at the fired heads to see scratches or excessive distortion. Unfortunately, remedy is limited as I believe the barrels on the 400 are chrome plated - so cant be easily polished or de-burred. Your best recourse is to test with another barrel... Otherwise, stick to 3 dram plus loads that are known to work.
 
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Jezuz...I hope you get this figured out soon man !! Seems like a couple of things in play maybe causing your grief. Gun itself, ammo, partially plugged ports...

Maynard is bang on ! Use the 3 dram ammo in the semi's ! One less thing to worry about when you're in the box or on the pad IMHO !

Here's my .02 worth on Challenger ammo.

We shoot a LOT of challenger here in the east coast, because of it's price and availability. Never any issues in any of our semi's when we use 3 dram eq ammo. I always use 3 dram loads , no matter what brand of ammo that I shoot, IF... I'm shooting my SX3 or my Maxus !!
I have had a dud primer a few times over the yrs, but have also had them in Fed TG's and Rem GC's as well.
I still reload a LOT of ammo myself, only because I'm a hull whore, and I admit that I have a problem !! Been reloading since the 70's, can't stop, nor do I want to....annnnd, other than lead, I have enuff chit stashed to out last me...LOL

Challenger gained a lot of popularity here for a few reasons....

1) It was the only ammo available during covid. We tried it and it worked well !! The good guys were still goin 25/25 with it !! It kept us going when others didn't, so we've reciprocated by supporting them, after those trying times.

2) It's quite a bit cheaper than the Nitro's, AA's, Rem GC's, Fed TG's, HOA and most of the other stuff now. Unless a 99.99 sale pops up on Rem GC's or Fed TG's..we'll usually grab a half dozen to add to the stash.

3) It's always available from The Gun Dealer...he also re-supplies our clubs when he visits during his sponsored shoots several times a year !

4) It's now a cheaper option than reloading target loads, since the price of the consumables went through the roof !!

5) He (TGD) keeps a real good variety of different Challenger ammo on hand. Light loads to heavy handi-capped in the normal shot sizes..7.5, 8 and 9's.
 
stubblejumper said:
At least 75% of the factory loads used at our club are Challenger, because they are readily available, and cheaper than most other brands. The Challenger 3 dram loads seem to function well in all semi autos at our club, the lighter loads do cause issues in some. My 3-1/2" SX-3 would usually have 1-2 issues out of 100 shots, with the light loads, and was flawless with the 3 dram loads. My 3" SX-3 was flawless with any load that I have tried. My 3-1/2" Maxus is also perfect with any load. We only have a couple of A400s, and both are target guns, and run any load perfectly. I break in any semi auto, by cleaning and lubing it, then cycling it manually a few hundred times, as I watch television, and I haven't had the issues that some people have with new semi autos.
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What I suspect (and it kinda came to light for me via this thread) is that those target guns have a 3" chamber.

I looked at the part numbers last night and checked my A400 against a 1301 Pro Comp as they both use the same style of gas piston and what I found was that all parts were the same apart from 2, the barrel being one (could the gas ports be bigger being a 3" max gun?) and the little hydraulic buffer that is mounted in the stock (could it be a more aggressive version in the 3.5" gun and less so in the 3" which would explain why one is less fussy than the other?)
 
cosmic said:
OP - The gas compensating mechanisms in modern shotguns are not perfect, they have limited compensating abilities. Accordingly, a 3 inch chambered gun has inherent advantage shooting target loads over a 3 1/2 inch gun due to gas port size. (You've touched upon this matter.) So if your gun has a source of additional friction, the compensating system can be overwhelmed when using light loads ( eg 2 3/4 drams). At the top of the list is chamber friction which can be caused by a rough surface finish, burrs and tapers, etc. A compounding problem occurs with shells employing steel bases are left in a high state of compressive hoop stress after firing, causing the hull, to stick in the chamber after firing (think shrink fit). This is dependent upon chamber diameter, steel base steel spec, and combustion pressure. (True brass heads are less prone to this issue due to the low yield stress of brass.)
If your problem is chamber friction, you might be able to confirm this by looking at the fired heads to see scratches or excessive distortion. Unfortunately, remedy is limited as I believe the barrels on the 400 are chrome plated - so cant be easily polished or de-burred. Your best recourse is to test with another barrel... Otherwise, stick to 3 dram plus loads that are known to work.
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I agree with this.

It seems it is hard to get a gun to work with all sizes / styles of ammo despite what Beretta claims. I can confirm, beyond doubt, that the gas ports are 100% clear.

I have recorded the action with slow mo video and the only 3 dram Rio seems to get the action all the way to the rear (locked back on last round every time but one when I last tested it) which kinda confirms that it is just getting enough gas to function. By contrast it only gets 3/4 ways back with Winchester. I also shot buck of some kind and it looked like it went all the way back or very close but did not lock on last round so obviously did not get back quite far enough.

I also really wonder if the more hydraulic dampener at the rear is setup for 3.5" ammo and is too aggressive. Hoping everything breaks in a little soon.
 
Sniffer said:
I agree with this.

It seems it is hard to get a gun to work with all sizes / styles of ammo despite what Beretta claims. I can confirm, beyond doubt, that the gas ports are 100% clear.

I have recorded the action with slow mo video and the only 3 dram Rio seems to get the action all the way to the rear (locked back on last round every time but one when I last tested it) which kinda confirms that it is just getting enough gas to function. By contrast it only gets 3/4 ways back with Winchester. I also shot buck of some kind and it looked like it went all the way back or very close but did not lock on last round so obviously did not get back quite far enough.

I also really wonder if the more hydraulic dampener at the rear is setup for 3.5" ammo and is too aggressive. Hoping everything breaks in a little soon.
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Running a skeet field, and seeing a large variety of shotguns and loads, I recommend 3 dram loads for 3-1/2" shotguns, and if you want to be able to shoot lighter loads, go with a 3" gun. But as I posted, my Maxus and SX-3, are among the least fussy shotguns where loads are concerned.
 
cosmic said:
Op - Here's a crazy idea. Put a very light layer of grease on the sides of the case head with ammo that is problematic. Any difference???
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Will try, but wont be until next week. I understand your logic, making the ammo easier to extract leaves more energy for cycling and picking up the next round.

From what I saw yesterday the gun is *almost* running correctly now based on the bolt speed and amount of travel.
 
Speaking specifically about light Challenger target loads. Even though I sort of “slagged” them in a previous post to this tread, I apologize. My comments should have come with more context. To clarify my concern, I don’t think they are the “ammo of choice” to be used to break in a semi-auto SG.

I use challenger target loads for trap and skeet practice most of the time. They are cheap and work well at breaking targets with my Browning over/under. Sometime other guys on the firing line have had issues ejecting challenger ammo in their O/U. My pocket knife still bears some scars from helping to lever out occasional stuck empties.

Maybe they work in your semi…maybe they don’t. I’m not sure if the issue is too light of a load or possibly the brass case head is too thin/soft and it stretches and causes interference in the chamber. However, both situations possibly slow down the bolt speed enough that it interferes with proper ammo cycling.

My experience with Challenger ammo in my semi’s is mixed. But it happens enough that it is of concern. I used them at one time or another in 5 different semi-auto 12 Ga. SG’s.

My previous Benelli SBE2 hated them to start. Wouldn’t cycle them all. But after 10 years and many 1000’s of rounds the issues disappeared. I only experienced issues with Challenger…never with Fed, Rem, Win or Score target loads.
My Benelli M4 digested Challenger perfectly from the start (even against the advice of “experts”).
My second hand Beretta A300 ejects fired cases fine but refuses to chamber a second round from the magazine. I’ve personally fired maybe 1000 hunting and target rounds through it. Will it get better…only time will tell (however, I might not live long enough to see it). No issues with other target loads.
My newish SBE3 cycles Challenger shells about 1/3 of the time. It seems to cycle others just fine, although I don’t have the experience with too many different target loads and maybe only 200 rounds through the gun.
Challenger target loads, if I remember correctly, worked fine in a previous Beretta UGB trap gun.
My new Beretta A400 (like the Ops)…honestly, I don’t intend to use Challenger shells in it because of previous issues.

My final anecdote comes from a defensive shotgun course that I took. The instructed is a very experienced shooter named John Dzurka. He indicated that with many, many course participants and many different guns, cycling issues with semi’s “more often than not” occur when the participant used Challenger target loads. He stressed for sport uses, they are fine.

He highly recommends that folks don’t rely on Challenger target loads in semi-auto shotguns when your life depends on them to function properly.

(I would add that you probably shouldn’t be using ANY target loads if your life depends on them!)
 
Hey,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I have one of these, and mine ran without issue right out of the box for everything I could jam in there right away. I guess I got lucky. I would try this one thing that has helped me get sticking guns back into shooting shape. My buddy bought one of these second hand, and I had to really clean it up for him. I think the previous owner went out and shot it a ton before cleaning off any of the preservative and oiling it properly. There was baked on crud in it.

For sticking chambers, I have had great success with oiling them (G96 or similar)and putting a 12 ga bronze brush on one section of cleaning rod then you can put it in your cordless drill on high speed and ream that chamber out really well from the chamber end with the barrel removed. You could also try soaking the chamber really well with solvent first, then wipe it out, and then try the G96 ream.

That has cleared up some of mine, and gotten them running again! I think sometimes oil or the original preservative gets baked on in there, and a few passes with a brush doesn't get it off, where this reaming does? The spinning action can really get stuck on oil off in a short time. Make sure you go all the way to the front of the chamber where the crimp opens up.

Anyway, easy to try it out and see if it does anything for your situation. At least, after you try this out, you know for sure that it isn't because of baked on oil/preservative in your chamber!

Just thinking more as I was about to finish this off. I would also take your bolt head off of the bolt body, and ream out the bolt as well to make sure the bolt head is sliding back and forth inside the bolt as it should. I'm pretty sure I had to clean out my buddies bolt too, as it was all gummed up.

I hope you get yours working.

Cheers,

Ian
 
This build up on my 1301 comp is after more than 1500rnds. Still functions flawlessly. Even cycles 1/2oz 2.5" roll crimped shells when this caked.
 

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brybenn said:
This build up on my 1301 comp is after more than 1500rnds. Still functions flawlessly. Even cycles 1/2oz 2.5" roll crimped shells when this caked.
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That is pretty crusty and yet it still works.

Meanwhile my gun is spotless and reliable cycling is spotty at best. Something is wrong here.
 
So I shot the gun some more and it showed a little improvement.

It will cycle and lock back most of the time on my better quality 3 dram ammo. Still not 100% reliable though.

I picked up an aftermarket uprated piston and plan to try it tomorrow. Sealing seems better on it and the tolerances measure a little tighter.

Hoping this gets it to where I want it to be:

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Pretty clear where the gas is hitting the piston - both ports obviously are clear:

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