Berger, Ballistic tip, meant bone penetration, accubond control test.
- Thread starter kman300
- Start date
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
10-4, so what you're saying is that a Hornady Amax or Sierra MK could be a designated hunting bullet if they printed "Hunting" on the box with no other change, except maybe a nice picture of a bull elk.
I shot a moose this year at about 90 yards with my 280 AI and 140 Accubonds. Both bullets were recovered against the hide on the exit side, roughly 80% weight retention and a perfect mushroom. If you can prove to me that a Berger of the same weight and velocity will duplicate that, I'll remain quiet.
So let me ask this then: What's the attraction to using the Berger if it came out as the worst performer in your test results? And BTW, you need to use bullets of the same weight in the same caliber travelling at similar velocities to have any kind of accurate comparison.
10-4, so what you're saying is that a Hornady Amax or Sierra MK could be a designated hunting bullet if they printed "Hunting" on the box with no other change, except maybe a nice picture of a bull elk.
No. In order to designate something for a specific purpose, the smart people at the company making the bullets would obviously test them first, to make sure they can indeed do what the box with the pretty picture on it says.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
That's what you think? Read on;
"Over the years we would get reports from hunters who would use the Berger VLD to successfully take game of all sizes. We dismissed these reports as the exception rather than the rule and would tell these hunters that we do not recommend that they use them to hunt.
Through the 90’s we tested several different concepts for a Berger “Hunting” bullet which had to meet two criteria. The first is that it had to retain at least 80% of its weight (since weight retention was the conventional wisdom for hunting bullets at the time) and the second was that it had to be capable of ¼ MOA in an equally capable rifle. We were not successful in meeting both goals at the same time in any of our tests.
As the century turned we had all but given up on the notion that we could make a “Hunting” bullet which is also match grade. In 2005 everything changed. While attending the SHOT Show we were approached by John Burns who at the time was with The Best of the West TV show. He asked if we would be interested in sponsoring their hunting TV show. Walt replied “we don’t make a hunting bullet”. John’s response was “oh yes you do.”
http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2011/03/16/history-of-the-match-grade-berger-hunting-vld/
So, as you can see, it was in fact the "Best of the West" crew, famous for awe inspiring videos of one shot kills at extreme ranges, who decided the Berger was in fact a "hunting bullet", even though Walt Berger himself dismissed it as such and Berger themselves couldn't manufacture one they would be comfortable in calling a "hunting bullet". It would seem someone in the executive decided the bottom line was more important. Nothing wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade.
Please do quote the entire article. Not just the out of context parts.
The story of the Berger Hunting VLD is a story of discovery rather than design. The VLD bullet design was created by Ballistician Bill Davis during a project that also involved Dr. Lou Palmisano and Ferris Pindell of PPC fame. Bill’s goal was to produce a bullet design that performed better in the wind than the 30 cal 168 gr SMK. He was asked to do this by the US 300 meter shooting team who had discovered that they were losing points late in the match due to recoil fatigue. They wanted a lighter bullet (less recoil) that would fly with the same or better trajectory.
After Bill came up with the VLD design he asked Walt Berger to make the bullets. Walt understood the vision of this concept and even though this bullet required a faster twist barrel than was readily available Walt decided he would make these bullets. They were a huge success in that they had a much better trajectory than the 168 gr SMK so the goal of this particular project was achieved and surpassed.
Slowly but surely word started to get out about the VLD concept. Shooters who cared about flatter trajectories and reduced wind drift started ordering barrels and over the next several years the VLD’s popularity grew rapidly.
From the beginning and to this day Walt (Berger Bullets) made/makes only match grade bullets. For a very long time Sierra Bullets has communicated the message that you should not hunt game with “Match” bullets since this is true with their MatchKings. Since the Berger VLD is a match grade bullet Walt took the same position and recommended that shooters should not hunt with the match grade Berger VLD.
Over the years we would get reports from hunters who would use the Berger VLD to successfully take game of all sizes. We dismissed these reports as the exception rather than the rule and would tell these hunters that we do not recommend that they use them to hunt.
Through the 90’s we tested several different concepts for a Berger “Hunting” bullet which had to meet two criteria. The first is that it had to retain at least 80% of its weight (since weight retention was the conventional wisdom for hunting bullets at the time) and the second was that it had to be capable of ¼ MOA in an equally capable rifle. We were not successful in meeting both goals at the same time in any of our tests.
As the century turned we had all but given up on the notion that we could make a “Hunting” bullet which is also match grade. In 2005 everything changed. While attending the SHOT Show we were approached by John Burns who at the time was with The Best of the West TV show. He asked if we would be interested in sponsoring their hunting TV show. Walt replied “we don’t make a hunting bullet”. John’s response was “oh yes you do.”
John pulled out a portable DVD player and showed us 45 minutes of bang flop after bang flop. Being a long time hunter Walt was very impressed with how quickly the game was dropping after each of the hits. John relayed that every animal was taken with Berger VLD match grade bullets and that he’d taken or watched personally hundreds of big game taken with Berger VLD over the years.
Obviously, this got our attention but we were not ready to jump in with both feet without testing this report for ourselves and confirming the results we’ve been shown. Over the next year numerous tests were done in media using every caliber and every weight VLD bullet in our line. The results were consistent and led us to decide to try them on game. In the next 6 months we either shot or witnessed over 50 animals of various size being taken with the Berger VLD. Each animal acted in the same way as the animals in the video John showed us at the SHOT Show.
Autopsies of these animals would confirm what we observed in the media. The bullet penetrates through the initial 1” to 3” of tissue and bone depending on impact velocity and then quickly fragments sending a tremendous amount of hydrostatic shock and fragments into the surrounding vital organ’s tissue. The tremendous amount of internal damage created by these bullets was far more than had been seen by all of the experienced hunters who were with us during these tests. We came to realize that we in fact had been making one of the most quickly lethal hunting bullets since Bill Davis asked Walt to make the 6mm 105 gr VLD he had designed decades earlier.
6mm-105gr-VLD
After these tests confirmed the results we had heard about for years we decided to start making it public that our Match bullets (that we have been telling people for years were not recommended for game hunting) are actually recommended for game hunting. This was no easy task at first. Fortunately, between the hunters who had already been using them and our sponsorship of The Best of the West TV show word spread more quickly than expected. While more hunters were learning about how well our bullets work on game we were wrestling with a completely different situation that had nothing to do with hunting but would affect our entire line.
For decades our bullets have been growing very popular among target competition shooters. The vast majority of those who used our bullets were happy with the results. On a few occasions a competition shooter would be shooting a string, doing very well and unexpectedly a fired shot would come up as a miss. When a top level shooter is pouring bullets into the 10 ring and for no obvious reason the next shot is a miss it is clear that something bad just happened and we needed to find out what so we could prevent it from happening again.
As it turns out the bullets were heating up to the point where the cores would actually melt. Once a bullet leaves the barrel with a melted core it is certain that the molten lead will burst through the jacket under such high RPM. Obviously this was a problem that we needed to resolve so we decided to test a thicker jacket. Making the jacket thicker did not make it strong enough to contain molten lead but rather it moved the lead away from the source of the heat. The source of the heat that can melt a core is the friction between the bearing surface and the rifling as the bullet travels through the barrel.
The thicker jacket was a complete success and since its introduction we have received no reports of a bullet failing to reach the target unless extreme circumstances were present (very rough bore, excessively high velocity case far beyond even the largest standard case, or improper loading practices which damaged the bullet before it was fired). Resolving this issue presented us with an important question. Now that we are making bullets on thicker jackets do we need to make the original thickness jacket anymore?
To answer this question we went back to testing in media. Again, the results were consistent and clear. The standard jacket had been thoroughly tested proving that after initial penetration the bullet fragments into a wide primary and secondary wound channels in the animal’s internal tissue. The thicker jackets acted similarly with one key difference. The area in which the fragmentation is distributed is narrower and the amount of fragmentation is less. Sure it is true that this result can kill game but it is clear that the standard jacket consistently performs much better in its ability to spread as wide a primary and secondary would channel as is possible making it a more quickly lethal bullet.
It was this consistent difference that led us to the decision to keep making both jackets. The standard jacket produces the most lethal wound channel deep inside the organs and the thicker jacket keeps competition target shooters from losing 10 points with a miss. Now we had to figure out how to explain this to the shooters. Since both are match grade we had difficulty in figuring out how we would distinguish one from the other.
Our first attempt was to label the bullets made with the thicker jacket simply with the word THICK. Wow was that a mistake. Very few people understood what “THICK” meant. When we were asked to explain we would relay that the thick jackets were made to keep the bullets from blowing up before they hit the target. Nearly every time the shooters response was “what do you mean the bullets blow up before they hit the target!?” This result had happened infrequently enough that many shooters were not aware of the situation at all. Clearly we were creating more confusion rather than helping people understand the difference so we took another look at the situation.
We needed a way to quickly and simply tell shooters something that would help them understand the difference in a way that lets them know which bullet is best for them. That is when we decided to separate them into application based lines; Target, Hunting and of course Varmint (which was not affected by any of these situations). Instead of trying to explain what the difference was between the bullets which took some time and didn’t always sink in, we decided instead to tell shooters what the bullet should be used for (application).
Thus was born the Match Grade Berger Hunting VLD, which is the same bullet that we have been making since Bill Davis asked Walt to make bullets with this innovative design. The Match Grade Berger Target VLD (and other designs in the Target line like the BT and Hybrid) are the newest member of the Berger family. The Target line started production in 2007 with a thicker jacket. The Match Grade Berger Varmint bullets have remained unchanged but have earned the Varmint designation for the same reasons as the Target and Hunting groups. Each line’s designation describes the application we recommend for a given bullet. What the shooter decides to do with them is entirely up to each shooter (which in a way is why the different lines exist today).
It would seem the bullet was tested extensively before being designated a hunting bullet and being put in the pretty box with the pretty picture on it.
Walt Berger
Last edited:
Thank you Kman300, I was too lazy to post up info that others are too lazy to read anyway before arguing. The proof is out there, and not by those that "have a dog in the race". I was once an anti Berger fellow myself, but after reading, watching, hearing the literally TONS of information that is now available, I tried them myself.
I really don't care what others do, but I will continue to use Accubonds, Partitions, TSX's, and Bergers on big game. It works, every time. Also, the quickest kills, bar none, have been with the Bergers, with a boiler room hit they almost act like a spinal or well placed head shot. The Partitions sometimes make me follow a blood trail....lol
I really don't care what others do, but I will continue to use Accubonds, Partitions, TSX's, and Bergers on big game. It works, every time. Also, the quickest kills, bar none, have been with the Bergers, with a boiler room hit they almost act like a spinal or well placed head shot. The Partitions sometimes make me follow a blood trail....lol
Well, you VLD users will have to carry on.
As for me, I decided some time ago to shoot Walt's bullets at paper, not game animals.
I do not see that changing in the forseeable future.
I have seen the wound channels made by Bergers several times now.
Some are plenty shallow, even on broadside shots.
I can see what may well happen on a different presentation.
Much better "hunting" bullets out there, the ½ MOA be da**ed!
Regards, Eagleye.
As for me, I decided some time ago to shoot Walt's bullets at paper, not game animals.
I do not see that changing in the forseeable future.
I have seen the wound channels made by Bergers several times now.
Some are plenty shallow, even on broadside shots.
I can see what may well happen on a different presentation.
Much better "hunting" bullets out there, the ½ MOA be da**ed!
Regards, Eagleye.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Whatever, drink the Berger Kool-Aid. Regardless of differing personal opinions on Bergers, your test is severely flawed, for reasons I stated earlier and haven't gotten a reply to yet. Do a retest with those parameters and report back.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Accuracy alone is a poor criteria for a big game bullet. But at long range, terminal performance cannot be realized without accuracy. I don't participate in long range game shooting, but if I did, I would choose a bullet that was accurate enough to produce sub MOA groups at the maximum range I intended to shoot and sufficient mass to ensure the performance I sought. For the sake of a definition, lets say a long range shot is one made at ranges approaching a half mile. Accubonds and TTSXs have proven themselves in my rifles out to 500, but beyond that, the groups tend to open up. So the criteria then is for an accurate high BC bullet with sufficient mass to penetrate into the chest cavity of a broadside animal, of the weight I intend to shoot. Velocity will be reduced at long range, so the terminal performance envelope of the bullet is less demanding than it would be for the game bullet that is used at close range.
For my purposes though, Bergers are a poor bullet choice. My shots tend to be well within 300, my game cartridges tend to be large, and due to my location, I must be constantly alert to the possibility of a conflict with a large bear. I don't want a thin skinned match bullet of any caliber or weight, or for that matter a heavy barreled target rifle with high powered optics, in a dangerous bear situation where I might have to shoot from a dozen feet to save my life.
If I lived elsewhere, neither would I choose a thin skinned match bullet for use at moderate ranges. Why? Well, lets look at that. When the shot is made at ranges between 2 and 500 yards its pretty easy, in that the target is large, the animal is not alerted to either your presence or to it's peril, thus giving the hunter plenty of time to assume a good position and make his shot. If the shot is a good one, and the bullet if a Berger, enters the chest and virtually explodes, shredding everything in an 8" radius, so the animal dies quickly and humanely, and the hunter walks away knowing that this is the type of bullet performance that will absolutely flatten game, and that these guys who go on and on ad nauseam about the importance of choosing a quality game bullet, don't have a clue.
Ahh, but shooting game is not synonymous with shooting paper targets. A game animal might take a step as the shot breaks, spoiling that perfect broadside placement, which now hits a bit too far back or a bit forward into the shoulder. In either scenario, the match bullet performs the same way, with a small entrance wound, followed by explosive expansion. In the shoulder the wound will be shallow, the bone will be disintegrated in a fist sized cavity, the wound flecked with jacket material, and you will learn how quickly an animal can run on 3 legs. If in the paunch, the bullet will expend itself in the gut, its forward progression halted in short order, and because everything in the gut is designed to expand and contract, no damage occurs that can prevent the animal's escape, although its distress is significant. But the important thing here is that the entrance wound is small, there is no possibility of an exit wound, so there is no blood trail to follow up. A similar hit with a properly designed and constructed game bullet, would break both shoulders in the case of a shoulder shot, and due to its forward center of gravity, high retained weight, and straight line penetration, stands a much better chance penetrating though the dense stomach contents, possibly hitting something vital if the shot angles forward slightly, or it might break a hip if angled rearward, or even exiting to producing a blood trail. The match bullet has no chance at all to do any of these things, unless its a particularly heavy one. If you're shooting deer or caribou with a .338 Lapua, it probably doesn't matter what bullet you use, but if the game is larger, your cartridge smaller, or the range short, the accuracy advantages of a match bullet cannot be realized in the field, and the performance of these bullets is suspect except under ideal circumstances. Things don't always go as planned and worse case scenarios are more common than you might think.
Although not a match bullet, Art Alphin of A-Sqaure fame, designed a triad of bullets (a mono-metal solid, a bonded core soft point, and a soft point with a brittle jacket and core designed to grenade inside game) to cover all bases when big game hunting, without the necessity of changing the sighting of the rifle, nice idea right? Well, one of these bullets was designed to flatten lions, and not surprisingly was called the lion load. The idea was the the bullet would get deep inside the lion, then explode like a grenade, resulting in a very fast kill. Here again, under ideal circumstances that bullet might very well have performed admirably, but there is nothing ideal about lion hunting, and these bullets quickly gained a reputation for failure on head on lions. How would you like to face a 450-500 pound lion from several feet away in long grass with a varmint bullet? Except for the large caliber, that's what the lion bullet was, a varmint bullet, and those who champion the use of match bullets for use on big game over normal hunting ranges are promoting the same mistake.
For my purposes though, Bergers are a poor bullet choice. My shots tend to be well within 300, my game cartridges tend to be large, and due to my location, I must be constantly alert to the possibility of a conflict with a large bear. I don't want a thin skinned match bullet of any caliber or weight, or for that matter a heavy barreled target rifle with high powered optics, in a dangerous bear situation where I might have to shoot from a dozen feet to save my life.
If I lived elsewhere, neither would I choose a thin skinned match bullet for use at moderate ranges. Why? Well, lets look at that. When the shot is made at ranges between 2 and 500 yards its pretty easy, in that the target is large, the animal is not alerted to either your presence or to it's peril, thus giving the hunter plenty of time to assume a good position and make his shot. If the shot is a good one, and the bullet if a Berger, enters the chest and virtually explodes, shredding everything in an 8" radius, so the animal dies quickly and humanely, and the hunter walks away knowing that this is the type of bullet performance that will absolutely flatten game, and that these guys who go on and on ad nauseam about the importance of choosing a quality game bullet, don't have a clue.
Ahh, but shooting game is not synonymous with shooting paper targets. A game animal might take a step as the shot breaks, spoiling that perfect broadside placement, which now hits a bit too far back or a bit forward into the shoulder. In either scenario, the match bullet performs the same way, with a small entrance wound, followed by explosive expansion. In the shoulder the wound will be shallow, the bone will be disintegrated in a fist sized cavity, the wound flecked with jacket material, and you will learn how quickly an animal can run on 3 legs. If in the paunch, the bullet will expend itself in the gut, its forward progression halted in short order, and because everything in the gut is designed to expand and contract, no damage occurs that can prevent the animal's escape, although its distress is significant. But the important thing here is that the entrance wound is small, there is no possibility of an exit wound, so there is no blood trail to follow up. A similar hit with a properly designed and constructed game bullet, would break both shoulders in the case of a shoulder shot, and due to its forward center of gravity, high retained weight, and straight line penetration, stands a much better chance penetrating though the dense stomach contents, possibly hitting something vital if the shot angles forward slightly, or it might break a hip if angled rearward, or even exiting to producing a blood trail. The match bullet has no chance at all to do any of these things, unless its a particularly heavy one. If you're shooting deer or caribou with a .338 Lapua, it probably doesn't matter what bullet you use, but if the game is larger, your cartridge smaller, or the range short, the accuracy advantages of a match bullet cannot be realized in the field, and the performance of these bullets is suspect except under ideal circumstances. Things don't always go as planned and worse case scenarios are more common than you might think.
Although not a match bullet, Art Alphin of A-Sqaure fame, designed a triad of bullets (a mono-metal solid, a bonded core soft point, and a soft point with a brittle jacket and core designed to grenade inside game) to cover all bases when big game hunting, without the necessity of changing the sighting of the rifle, nice idea right? Well, one of these bullets was designed to flatten lions, and not surprisingly was called the lion load. The idea was the the bullet would get deep inside the lion, then explode like a grenade, resulting in a very fast kill. Here again, under ideal circumstances that bullet might very well have performed admirably, but there is nothing ideal about lion hunting, and these bullets quickly gained a reputation for failure on head on lions. How would you like to face a 450-500 pound lion from several feet away in long grass with a varmint bullet? Except for the large caliber, that's what the lion bullet was, a varmint bullet, and those who champion the use of match bullets for use on big game over normal hunting ranges are promoting the same mistake.
Excellent post Boomer, even though I myself have and will use Berger, at least I do not exclusively use them, my main hunting bullets are Accubonds, GMK's, Partitions, and TSX's as I have previously posted. I do still believe that a Berger type bullet has its place in hunting. Especially for thin skinned, non dangerous game at extreme range.
I conducted the test to see what would happen in a worst case scenario (the same one Boomer mentioned, namely that the animal takes a step and now you have a leg bone in front of the rib cage.) with a fragile bullet at point blank range (max impact speed is the other worst case scenario for fragile bullets) when compared to a tougher bonded bullet.
I will reward you handsomely if you can point me in the right direction as to where to purchase 7mm 150 accubonds, 7mm 160 ballistic tips, 308 190 accubonds or 308 200 bergers.
The attraction for using bergers is that they have high BC and this is good for many things. They will also expand down to lower velocities which makes them usable for longer distances. In my mind they passed the worst case scenario test (max impact speed and leg in front of broadside shot) and therefore, again in my mind, they will only preform better in non worst case scenarios (less impact speed and no legs in front of ribs). The total of ~18" of penetration of the 190 and the 150 btip will work for my needs in the situations I chose to use them.
You seem very adamant that the Berger "kool-aid" is no good. Would you please share you experience with them? Under what circumstances they failed you? Caliber, weight, impact speed, shot angle etc?
If you didn't actually use them on animals, would you share your test results from simulated testing? Media used, what types of bones and so on.
Thank you
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
Bullets are designed to kill.
Bullets that don't kill when proper shot placement has been achieved, fail.
If you shoot something and it dies from the gunshot wound relatively quickly, the bullet did not fail; regardless of retained weight, exit wounds, number of petals retained, shape of the mushroom, whether the bullet was recovered, whether the bullet was non-toxic, whether you shot the bullet on a Monday or a Tuesday, your favorite flavor of ice cream, your shoe size, or what color underwear your momma wears.
And done is done.
sure. Or accubonds, TTSX etc. No controversy about those bullets ability to kill moose.
Kman, first, thank you for taking the time and photos and presenting them here for our discussion, this needs to be more recognised in this thread, regardless of opinions on the outcome!!
I am actually surprized at how well the Bergers did within the parrameters of your test.
Most who read this forum much know I have a little experience at harvesting game. I have never taken even one head of game with a Berger bullet, so I will prefix all that follows with this caveat.
My criteria for bullet performance is it must make it to the vitals regardless of the angle and range the game I'm hunting presents itself. Many of my hunts cost extreme amounts of money and sometimes there will only be one opportunity. Some of the animals carry $10-20,000 trophy fees and a wounded animal is a paid for animal. So you can see I'm very motivated to make sure my bullets will meet my criteria, even above the normal hunting ethics of a clean kill.
It has been my experience that you cannot embark on a hunt and KNOW the game you are persuing will present a 400 mtr broadside shot, it may jump up from behind a rock at 40 mtrs and run straight away. Will I pass up this shot.......no I will not in most cases. Some may have ethical problems with this but so be it. I'm sure you will agree that a Berger bullet cannot be expected to perform in this extreme scenario, I have however used Nosler Partitions, Swift A-frames and Barnes X, TSX and TTSX, in this precise scenario with success. A couple of times have been my own doing where I failed to place my first shot correctly (yes, it does happen) and my only follow up shots have been at the south end of a northbound critter. Other times it may be the only opportunity at an exceptional trophy, hard quartering away or straight away and the aforementioned bullets have performed, not always perfectly, but well enough to have anchored or debilitated the animal so a subsequent shot was allowed to dispatch it.
Now, as is spouted "ad nauseum" on these pages shot placement is the "end all, be all" in harvesting big game cleanly, ethically and efficiently and I agree. HOWEVER it don't always work out that way and bad shots are made, I don't care who you are or how many head of game you have shot, sh!t happens. A gust of wind, a little (God forbid) flinch, an unseen twig, an untimely step of the quarry, and AH SH!T, we got a bad hit. Following up any game, let alone dangerous game, is an iffy proposition, I'm sure you'll agree. This is not the time to be wondering if your chosen bullet is up to the task, you are likely going to be presented with a less than optimum angle or shot and you must take it, even if the best you can do is slow it down more or inflict more damage. This gentlemen is real world hunting, not perfect shot keyboard theories.
This is why I have never taken one head of game with a Berger bullet, I always prepare for the worst case scenario. It is also why I tend to shoot larger calibers than the size of game I hunt would normally require and it is also why I tend to use the upper weight range of bullets in most of my hunting rifles. I also know that there are no guarantees that even the bullets mentioned won't fail occasionally (I had a batch of 30 cal 200 gn Parts fail in Africa), but when I hear many, many tales of match bullets failing on game from what I believe to be reliable sources, I do not have to reinvent the wheel and I sure as h3ll, don't want to find out for myself on a $60K hunt.
There have been too many reports of Berger and SMKs failing, for me to risk the outcome of a very expensive hunt with significant travel involved, just to see for myself. If this is bigotry by heresay, then I am guilty.
I do trust, however that you can see my position.
Douglas
I am actually surprized at how well the Bergers did within the parrameters of your test.
Most who read this forum much know I have a little experience at harvesting game. I have never taken even one head of game with a Berger bullet, so I will prefix all that follows with this caveat.
My criteria for bullet performance is it must make it to the vitals regardless of the angle and range the game I'm hunting presents itself. Many of my hunts cost extreme amounts of money and sometimes there will only be one opportunity. Some of the animals carry $10-20,000 trophy fees and a wounded animal is a paid for animal. So you can see I'm very motivated to make sure my bullets will meet my criteria, even above the normal hunting ethics of a clean kill.
It has been my experience that you cannot embark on a hunt and KNOW the game you are persuing will present a 400 mtr broadside shot, it may jump up from behind a rock at 40 mtrs and run straight away. Will I pass up this shot.......no I will not in most cases. Some may have ethical problems with this but so be it. I'm sure you will agree that a Berger bullet cannot be expected to perform in this extreme scenario, I have however used Nosler Partitions, Swift A-frames and Barnes X, TSX and TTSX, in this precise scenario with success. A couple of times have been my own doing where I failed to place my first shot correctly (yes, it does happen) and my only follow up shots have been at the south end of a northbound critter. Other times it may be the only opportunity at an exceptional trophy, hard quartering away or straight away and the aforementioned bullets have performed, not always perfectly, but well enough to have anchored or debilitated the animal so a subsequent shot was allowed to dispatch it.
Now, as is spouted "ad nauseum" on these pages shot placement is the "end all, be all" in harvesting big game cleanly, ethically and efficiently and I agree. HOWEVER it don't always work out that way and bad shots are made, I don't care who you are or how many head of game you have shot, sh!t happens. A gust of wind, a little (God forbid) flinch, an unseen twig, an untimely step of the quarry, and AH SH!T, we got a bad hit. Following up any game, let alone dangerous game, is an iffy proposition, I'm sure you'll agree. This is not the time to be wondering if your chosen bullet is up to the task, you are likely going to be presented with a less than optimum angle or shot and you must take it, even if the best you can do is slow it down more or inflict more damage. This gentlemen is real world hunting, not perfect shot keyboard theories.
This is why I have never taken one head of game with a Berger bullet, I always prepare for the worst case scenario. It is also why I tend to shoot larger calibers than the size of game I hunt would normally require and it is also why I tend to use the upper weight range of bullets in most of my hunting rifles. I also know that there are no guarantees that even the bullets mentioned won't fail occasionally (I had a batch of 30 cal 200 gn Parts fail in Africa), but when I hear many, many tales of match bullets failing on game from what I believe to be reliable sources, I do not have to reinvent the wheel and I sure as h3ll, don't want to find out for myself on a $60K hunt.
There have been too many reports of Berger and SMKs failing, for me to risk the outcome of a very expensive hunt with significant travel involved, just to see for myself. If this is bigotry by heresay, then I am guilty.
I do trust, however that you can see my position.
Douglas
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
^^Great post Douglas, my sentiments exactly!
I have personally only used a Berger in my 300WinMag to my recollection, and it performed dismally on a whitetail at about 120 yards. Huge meat loss and jelling of tissue with little penetration. Only one lung was affected. These were 180's I believe. No more testing was necessary in my books and I quit using them. I have however blood trailed numerous animals shot with Berger's by others. Part of this comes down to bullet construction, but the majority of it comes down to the hunter thinking he had an ICBM since he loaded up the VLD's that in his mind defy physics.
Sadly, the common trend these days is the exact opposite of what C-FBMI stated. Light for caliber bullets at high velocities. This trend was started with the Barnes TSX, which is a great bullet and can handle the extra fps due to its construction,but throw a fragile bullet in the mix and you have potential disaster on your hands.
I have never lost an animal due to overpenetration. I would much rather use a solid than a match bullet if it came down to it. If the Bergers work for you then by all means, this is a free world, continue using them.
For hunting, the high BC is not as much of an advantage as you'd like to think. Yes, there's slightly less wind drift and a slightly flatter trajectory compared to a lower BC bullet, but that's all. The attraction lies in the fact it's a fad. regardlless of bullet or caliber, you still need to know your specific load's ballistics, whether it's a 308 Win or a 30-378 Wby. That's the isseu with the Berger's; many think they've somehow avoided the common laws of physics. Does it really matter if a bullet drops 42" at 600 yards vs. 47" for the non VLD?
I have personally only used a Berger in my 300WinMag to my recollection, and it performed dismally on a whitetail at about 120 yards. Huge meat loss and jelling of tissue with little penetration. Only one lung was affected. These were 180's I believe. No more testing was necessary in my books and I quit using them. I have however blood trailed numerous animals shot with Berger's by others. Part of this comes down to bullet construction, but the majority of it comes down to the hunter thinking he had an ICBM since he loaded up the VLD's that in his mind defy physics.
Sadly, the common trend these days is the exact opposite of what C-FBMI stated. Light for caliber bullets at high velocities. This trend was started with the Barnes TSX, which is a great bullet and can handle the extra fps due to its construction,but throw a fragile bullet in the mix and you have potential disaster on your hands.
I have never lost an animal due to overpenetration. I would much rather use a solid than a match bullet if it came down to it. If the Bergers work for you then by all means, this is a free world, continue using them.
Good post Douglas. When you are paying big bucks use a bullet that works under the worst conditions and launch it from a case that will push said projectile into the vitals in the worst case scenario. Don't think anyone can argue with that logic. As for the animal jumping up close, well people have been known to carry a stout bullet in the chamber on the way to their 800 yard clear cut where they switch to the fragile ones. Not a perfect solution but does work. I am very curious to try the new long range accubonds next year. They will solve the problem of having a stout and a slippery bullet along for the ride.
The problem is that you can not know the specific ballistics for a load since wind can go left and right 3 times by the time you get out there. A high bc bullet minimizes this. Drop is easy to compensate for as gravity is constant. Wind is not. It does not matter if a bullet drops 40" or 50" at a given range as long as you adjusted for this. It does matter if a bullet is 10" left or right of where you are aiming.
There is no 180gr berger 308 hunting bullet.
I agree completely that fragile bullets should NOT be used faster than the designers intended, nor should they be used at close range. Use them for what they where designed to do beyond 500-600 yards where they have slowed down sufficiently and have a true advantage over non vld designs. You and the other fellow with the 130gr that "failed" at 70 yards make my point exactly. Why use a fragile, high BC bullet at 70, 120 etc yards from high velocity cartridges? The BC makes no difference as you point out. So why use them at that range?
There is no 180gr berger 308 hunting bullet.
I agree completely that fragile bullets should NOT be used faster than the designers intended, nor should they be used at close range. Use them for what they where designed to do beyond 500-600 yards where they have slowed down sufficiently and have a true advantage over non vld designs. You and the other fellow with the 130gr that "failed" at 70 yards make my point exactly. Why use a fragile, high BC bullet at 70, 120 etc yards from high velocity cartridges? The BC makes no difference as you point out. So why use them at that range?
