bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nowhere, ......just past the middle
Exactly. So why not use a bullet that works well at all ranges?
Berger bullet failures?
- Thread starter masoncade1992
- Start date
Exactly. So why not use a bullet that works well at all ranges?
elimsprint
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
I'm at more like 20 deer but I agree completely, Bergers are my go to bullet for big game. Deadly accurate, out of my guns at least, and everything I have shot with them has died very quickly. .243 (87gr), 7-30 Waters, 7mm Rem Mag (140gr) all VLD Hunting.
Purple shoulder
Regular
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Well I could have gone the way many CGNer's go.
Example question "What is a good bullet for deer with a 30-06?" Answer "The 30-06 sucks. Get a 270".
But the op seemed to like the bergers for longer range. Since its a free country he can do that, so I thought I had a solution that might help him accomplish his objective. Personally I wouldn't use 2 types of ammo but I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on him, but rather offer some advice that may or may not be acceptable to him or anyone else. Take it or leave it. For what its worth I totally agree with you. But if I didn't it really shouldn't matter a dam bit.
So, you're arguing that bad advice is OK because it's "advice", and it's a free country so bad advice is OK?
pete dobinson
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Courtenay BC.
Best post yet, I would use Accubonds or Barnes ttsx for hunting.
Purple shoulder
Regular
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Yup. Ya thats right.
lion load ... Mike the design was so clever but if in the perfect scenario only: no bones hit etc ... my late friend Don Heath told me that he loved the nosler partition and later the norma oryx for mostly anything.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
In my limited experience over past 45 years, I tend towards anything Dr. Heath, or Finn Aargard, or Phil Shoemaker, or John Barnsess have written about rifles, bullets and what to select. It can't be a coincidence that they mostly end up at the same place!!
it is a little boring with all those good guys going in the same direction ....
Pictures can also mislead.
By testing on wet newspaper, those bullets such as Cutting Edge or Berger will surely fail. But game animals are different from wet newspapers
I would not chose bergers for frontal shot on a grizzly.....chase elk and moose enuf sooner or later you will likely have a run in with a griz. Base your decision on worse case scenario you might encounter. No need for long shots anyhow. I use Nosler Partions or Barnes TTSX in 338mag for all my elk/moose hunts. Plenty accurate and I find most shots are typically under 40yds for elk and 200yds for moose. I have also shot lots of elk and moose and bergers would not be my choice for frontal/qurtering shots where bone may be a factor. Cheers
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But what does it mean when you test a Partition in wet newsprint and it never fails, the front expands, creating a seriously large first 1/3 of its path as a devastating mess of paper, then the last 2/3 creates a long, slowly diminishing wound channel that is deeper by far? Do "relative" differences that are obvious from testing different bullets in an identical medium mean anything?
I have done lots of wet newsprint tests of various bullets. Several bullets (Partitions are my favorite) NEVER fail like that picture, and ALWAYS create the same results. The front half expands as it should; the back half penetrates to make a wound channel deeper than most others. The pictures of those Bergers are proof they are inferior to many other bullets; that they can not be relied upon; and that they are NOT good hunting bullets. Wet news print is not animals, but wet news print is a consistent medium that has none of the "hard bits" in it. If a bullet cannot survive wet news print, I'll not hunt with it.
As one of Yogi Berra's quotes is supposed to have been: "Some people- if they don't already know, you can't tell 'em". I guess even a picture isn't enough for some.
the testing way will it be water or wet newspaper is doing one thing results and a way to compare the bullets together. if one is not meeting tour expectation then do not use it unless you are ready for a not so good results ...
I will post up a picture later from my recovered bullets shot out of my 7RM. One is a cheapo WW Power Point, 150 Swift Scirroco II, and a 160 accubond. First two were used on moose and the AB was used on a mountain goat.
I think you should just pop a 160 accubond into that 28 Nos and if it shoots, call it a day. There isn't much that bullet at those speeds won't knock down if you are minute-of-ice-cream-pail.
I think you should just pop a 160 accubond into that 28 Nos and if it shoots, call it a day. There isn't much that bullet at those speeds won't knock down if you are minute-of-ice-cream-pail.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Game animals, and even cattle are a poor basis for measuring the terminal performance of a bullet, since the endless variables of body density, shot angle, range, impact velocity, and so on would require the shooting of hundreds if not thousands of animals. The animal's reaction to the shot would which would then be carefully tabulated, the carcass dissected, with measurements and the weight damaged tissue determined and recorded. This would have to be done in each and every case. The only time anything like this has occurred in North America, to the best of my knowledge is during the Thompson-LaGarde Studies in 1904. In South Africa, a couple of bullet manufacturers conduct live animal shooting as part of their terminal performance studies, but they are the exception to the rule. In North America, bullet manufactures use Billy Bob's field experience as proof that their little pieces of metal are better than the other guy's, and are truly worth the $2 a piece you'll have to pay for them.
There is a problem with taking any one hunter's observations as absolute proof of anything. Let's consider Steward Edward White. White was a marvelous game shot, who was claimed to be able to keep his shots within 2" of his intended point of impact, regardless of range, position, or amount of physical exertion. I wish I could do that. In 1911, the .30/06 was still new, he took the second Wundhammer custom Springfield sporter ever built, the first one belonged to President Roosevelt, on an African safari back when African safaris could last 6 months or more. During that safari, he supplied all of the camp meat with that rifle, and gained a reputation as the greatest game shot that ever lived. It was said he could always place his bullet within 2" of his intended point of impact, regardless of position, range, exertion, or shot angle. Bear in mind this was with an aperture rear sight and a post front sight. I wish I could do that . . . with a scoped rifle. Number of animals that were missed - 0. Number of animals that escaped wounded - 0. Number of animals that required more than a single shot - 6 (IIRC). The bullet that White used to such effect, was the only one that the .30/06 was available with at the time, military ball 150 gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps. According to his carefully recorded observations, this was a dandy game bullet. If anyone spoke today of using military ball ammunition on big game, they'd be tared and feathered, and unkind rumors would be spread concerning their lineage to canines.
So back to the point I was attempting to make, bullet testing has to be done in such a way that all bullets are measured on an even playing field, and from that data suggestions can be made for which bullet is best, or even acceptable for what job. Sometimes the testing comes close to duplicating field results, other times no so much. Prior to my African trip, I tested 3 bullets, thinking I would choose one for the trip. The testing involved lining up a number of 5 gallon pails filled with drill mud, and shooting into them from 20' distance, which I considered my nightmare buffalo scenario, and I would take the bullet that didn't fail. The first two were 270 and 300 gr .375 X bullets, the 270 gr was an XLC. Both bullets had the petals blown off, and both had a remaining frontal diameter only slightly larger than the shank, but the 380 gr Rhino at 2300 fps was a game changer. It expanded to .92", blew apart the first pail so no cavity measurement could be taken, and stopped in the 3rd pail. Overall penetration was 32"! In the end my .375 Ultra stayed home and I used a .500 Nitro double rifle with 580 gr X bullets at 2150 to slay my buffalo. The bullet I recovered from the buffalo expanded to .92" and penetrated 32" on a quartering shoulder shot. Cool. Should that be taken as how every .510 X bullet would always perform on buffalo? I wouldn't say so. Everyone knows you can't get a clean kill with a non-expanding bullets on game, but wait a minute, on the same hunt, with my partner's M-70 .375 H&H, and 300 gr Speer African Solids, I got 2 DRTs, an impala and a warthog. Maybe Stewart Edward White was on to something.
There is a problem with taking any one hunter's observations as absolute proof of anything. Let's consider Steward Edward White. White was a marvelous game shot, who was claimed to be able to keep his shots within 2" of his intended point of impact, regardless of range, position, or amount of physical exertion. I wish I could do that. In 1911, the .30/06 was still new, he took the second Wundhammer custom Springfield sporter ever built, the first one belonged to President Roosevelt, on an African safari back when African safaris could last 6 months or more. During that safari, he supplied all of the camp meat with that rifle, and gained a reputation as the greatest game shot that ever lived. It was said he could always place his bullet within 2" of his intended point of impact, regardless of position, range, exertion, or shot angle. Bear in mind this was with an aperture rear sight and a post front sight. I wish I could do that . . . with a scoped rifle. Number of animals that were missed - 0. Number of animals that escaped wounded - 0. Number of animals that required more than a single shot - 6 (IIRC). The bullet that White used to such effect, was the only one that the .30/06 was available with at the time, military ball 150 gr FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps. According to his carefully recorded observations, this was a dandy game bullet. If anyone spoke today of using military ball ammunition on big game, they'd be tared and feathered, and unkind rumors would be spread concerning their lineage to canines.
So back to the point I was attempting to make, bullet testing has to be done in such a way that all bullets are measured on an even playing field, and from that data suggestions can be made for which bullet is best, or even acceptable for what job. Sometimes the testing comes close to duplicating field results, other times no so much. Prior to my African trip, I tested 3 bullets, thinking I would choose one for the trip. The testing involved lining up a number of 5 gallon pails filled with drill mud, and shooting into them from 20' distance, which I considered my nightmare buffalo scenario, and I would take the bullet that didn't fail. The first two were 270 and 300 gr .375 X bullets, the 270 gr was an XLC. Both bullets had the petals blown off, and both had a remaining frontal diameter only slightly larger than the shank, but the 380 gr Rhino at 2300 fps was a game changer. It expanded to .92", blew apart the first pail so no cavity measurement could be taken, and stopped in the 3rd pail. Overall penetration was 32"! In the end my .375 Ultra stayed home and I used a .500 Nitro double rifle with 580 gr X bullets at 2150 to slay my buffalo. The bullet I recovered from the buffalo expanded to .92" and penetrated 32" on a quartering shoulder shot. Cool. Should that be taken as how every .510 X bullet would always perform on buffalo? I wouldn't say so. Everyone knows you can't get a clean kill with a non-expanding bullets on game, but wait a minute, on the same hunt, with my partner's M-70 .375 H&H, and 300 gr Speer African Solids, I got 2 DRTs, an impala and a warthog. Maybe Stewart Edward White was on to something.
My dad and i shot about 10 animals in aim with a 7 stw shooting 160 Ab's, and never had and unsatisfactory results, from waterbuck at 30-40 yrs, to wildebeest at 300. i was very impressed coming back from that trip, after going in with a little skepticism about the accubonds.
Bullets with starting weight and then retained weight. The Swift went through hells half acre from 307 yards into the rear hip socket and smashed it up. One tough bullet but the most finicky bullet I've worked with.
I will add that I've only shot Bergers at the range and naturally they were very accurate. I did get to see a mule deer shot with a 154 gr SST from my 7RM this year and wow...210 yard high shoulder shot and it was insta-death but there was no need for THAT much damage. Yikes!
I will add that I've only shot Bergers at the range and naturally they were very accurate. I did get to see a mule deer shot with a 154 gr SST from my 7RM this year and wow...210 yard high shoulder shot and it was insta-death but there was no need for THAT much damage. Yikes!
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this.......... ballistic tip from nosler sounds like combination of enough for what this guy wants....
I like cup n cores at minimum, typical ol ones....
