Berger bullet failures?
- Thread starter masoncade1992
- Start date
Excellent photo's Steve.
Real world performance on game is likely pretty similar between the Match King and the Berger if that photo is any indication.
The Sierra photo's look very much like every Sierra I've ever recovered from game kills.
Real world performance on game is likely pretty similar between the Match King and the Berger if that photo is any indication.
The Sierra photo's look very much like every Sierra I've ever recovered from game kills.
For hunting applications, lead free is "The way of the future". There will be no getting around it. Here they/we started with only steel for waterfowl and it is progressing. Humans realized that lead contamination in food or in the food chain IS NO GOOD. I agree!
In the meanwhile - lots of European countries have already changed hunting rules in this matter. So, why would we continue to use fragmenting lead bullets ruining our Sunday roasts?
RR
In the meanwhile - lots of European countries have already changed hunting rules in this matter. So, why would we continue to use fragmenting lead bullets ruining our Sunday roasts?
RR
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Nonsense. You do know that lead free shot was mandated for the health of the wetlands and the health of the birds who ingested lead shot while feeding, and not because there were health concerns for the people who consumed healthy birds killed with lead shot. If you're concerned about lead contamination in game meat, choosing a bonded bullet with proven high weight retention eliminates that concern, as does shooting low velocity hard cast lead bullets which do not change shape when impacting their target. Then there's the issue of finding a bullet material that is as effective on varmints as is a thin jacketed lead core bullet impacting at very high velocities. The last thing we should do is emulate the European example on this or any other subject.
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
This promotional video is particularly enlightening when taken in context with the bullet performance observations made by Dogleg over the last few years. Without attempting to put words in his mouth, he considers the Swift A-Frame one of the best big game bullets available, while the monos are way down on his list. Light fast bullets bullets for light fast animals, and heavy slow bullets for heavy slow animals, and sunlight kills game are a couple of the gems he's provided on the subject of terminal ballistic performance.
hometownhero
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Toon Town, Sk
Don't forget this one. If you want game to die someplace other then where its shot use barnes.
....not advocating long range target practice on game animals....but Barnes currently does not offer a long range bullet?....
Unless I am missing something?
The LRX is their longer range bullet, but the B.C. is still not that high.
When in university, I wrote a thesis on the lead-shot ban. In a nutshell/short story the "main" purpose to ban lead-shot was/is to protect raptor birds. Studies have proven that raptor birds were eating wounded/dead migratory birds, hence a large quantity of lead in their bloodstream. Off subject a little, while studying this phenomena, I discovered in history text books that European settlers used a small glass to spit out lead shot from the birds they hunted, hence the shot glass.
Hand Skills
CGN Regular
- Location
- In the 'heartland', southern SK
There is no 'silver' bullet that will
-expand at low velocity
-penetrate at high velocity
-have a high ballistic coefficient
There are tradeoffs, and we kind of have to pick what matters to us.
I think it speaks volumes how few responses we've had from people using Berger bullets on elk at short range - success or fail. The reality is, ballistic coefficient is not important to the majority of hunters. For most there are far more important attributes.
A lot gets made of BC, but inside normal hunting distances it offers very little (if any) advantage
-expand at low velocity
-penetrate at high velocity
-have a high ballistic coefficient
There are tradeoffs, and we kind of have to pick what matters to us.
I think it speaks volumes how few responses we've had from people using Berger bullets on elk at short range - success or fail. The reality is, ballistic coefficient is not important to the majority of hunters. For most there are far more important attributes.
A lot gets made of BC, but inside normal hunting distances it offers very little (if any) advantage
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- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
That wasn't in reference to long range shooting, rather to the idea that game shot with a Barnes mono tends to travel further than game shot with lead core bullets.
I have found that when lighter monometal bullets are used in very high velocity cartridges, such as the 7mmstw, they provide very quick kills.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well said. Ballistic coefficient is one of the last factors I look for in a mountain hunting bullet. Clients often ask about Bergers, even A-Max’s, and I actually had to make a form reply email on mountain rifle ballistics and what’s important as I found myself repeating the same information. Speed is important, however BC is maybe 10% of the equation. The difference between a .500 G1 BC and a .325 BC (boring hunting bullet) at 300 yards and the same velocity is usual around an inch and a half in drop. The very definition of negligible. If you’re culling in a southern climate at 450-1000 yards BC’s part of the calculation grows substantially, to become the greatest concern as ranges stretch. But for 99% of hunting, including in the mountains, it’s a relatively minor consideration. Something that’s nice to have, but one of the last considerations looked at.
I have seen this firsthand also
B.C. isnt everything, and neither is trajectory. You've correctly deduced that a couple inches less drop isn't a big deal, but it isn't the whole story.
Let's use your .325 and .500 numbers; and fill out the rest with other ordinary numbers like 2700 fps MV and a 180 grain bullet. A 30-06 in other words, loaded with something like maybe a Power Point on the one hand and a Ballistic Tip on the other. Decidedly real world stuff.
The .325 bullet is going to come dribbling in at 350 yards with a retained velocity in the mid 1800s. Besides being on the decidedly low side for decent expansion it's also right around 300 fps slower and with about 400 foot pounds less energy. That's about the difference between a 30-06 and a 300 WSM or a factory loaded 300 Win. Guys trade their guns off for less than that. It's between 2 and 3 times the difference between Ackley improving the '06 and about the same as forgetting 5 or 6 grains of powder in the 30-06.
The performance improvement is essentially free, there's no penalty in recoil, powder use, or barrel life. It's the closest you're ever going to get to getting something for nothing. I'll throw in the reduced wind drift for free.
it's quite a bargain for simply switching bullets.prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
B.C. isnt everything, and neither is trajectory. You've correctly deduced that a couple inches less drop isn't a big deal, but it isn't the whole story.
Let's use your .325 and .500 numbers; and fill out the rest with other ordinary numbers like 2700 fps MV and a 180 grain bullet. A 30-06 in other words, loaded with something like maybe a Power Point on the one hand and a Ballistic Tip on the other. Decidedly real world stuff.
The .325 bullet is going to come dribbling in at 350 yards with a retained velocity in the mid 1800s. Besides being on the decidedly low side for decent expansion it's also right around 300 fps slower and with about 400 foot pounds less energy. That's about the difference between a 30-06 and a 300 WSM or a factory loaded 300 Win. Guys trade their guns off for less than that. It's between 2 and 3 times the difference between Ackley improving the '06 and about the same as forgetting 5 or 6 grains of powder in the 30-06.
The performance improvement is essentially free, there's no penalty in recoil, powder use, or barrel life. It's the closest you're ever going to get to getting something for nothing. I'll throw in the reduced wind drift for free.
That is true but your comparing 2 good hunting bullets here. Compare the pp to a Berger vld the difference will be huge. But at what point do you wanna sacrifice terminal performance for bc?
Me? I just load up a plain old accubond in most my big game rifles and call it a day. The rest get partitions and ballistic tips. Or some boring old sp.
