Berger VLD Bullets on deer

Four of us tried yellow box Bergers this season. Bullets used were 180 grain 7mm in STW, 185 and 190 in .300 Win, and 150 in a .270 Weatherby. 2 guys finished the season thinking they were on to something, and 2 have come to the conclusion that Berger and some folks with a TV show can shove them up their a$$.
I finally found some Orange box Bergers and will disect some right away. Whatever difference I find, if any, will be posted.
 
I first heard of Bergers from my local dealer. Back then they did not label any of their bullets "hunting", they were straight VLD's. The dealer was very impressed with them and suggested I might want to try them for a change from the normal stuff I buy from him. He told me they were getting excellent results hunting and the fact that they weren't "hunting" bullets could be ignored. Later, when Berger started selling dedicated "hunting" bullets I asked the same fellow about it - he told me they were the exact same bullet, just labelled as "hunting" to ease the minds of shooters afraid to shoot game with them.

I shot a moose with 210gr VLD's from my 30-06, http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3624122#post3624122. At non-magnum velocities they seemed DEADLY to me. As they shoot so well I have been considering going to them as my standard bullet in several calibers, but I am still a bit worried about meat damage. I haven't made my mind up yet.

One thing nobody has mentioned about these yet, but I'll put out there now. From what I saw of these bullets I think they might be a hell of a bear defense bullet if nothing else. Hard to argue with a bullet that can snap a moose femur, keep going, and still leave a gaping hole in it's torso large enough to fit a man's forearm into...
 
Proved two things to my satisfaction.They're the same thing, and getting pictures of sectioned bullets is harder than it looks.


DSCF2667.jpg
 
Same as others have said - good at long range - grenades under 100 yards.

I've used 25 cal 115 gr on two deer and an elk this year - deer at 250 and 300 yards, elk lasered at 440 yards - all went down right quick - elk made it five steps.

Not the bullet of choice if you demand an exit wound or demand a bullet that weighs as much as it did when it was new.

Lung soup was the result of anything shot with the 25 cals this year....I was deer hunting with my son when the elk walked out - I had a tag - so I took the gun and shot it (very nervous - smaller gun then I prefer to shoot elk with) but it dropped awfully fast....debating my lust for magnum on elk anymore.
 
I got a wound 1 inch deep and a foot across on a whitetail. 440 yards isn't exactly longrange, but few would call it short either. The 190 grain VLD nipped a bit of shoulder meat and blew up on the ribs. Ironically my kid finished it for me with a 100 gr Ballistic tip from his .257 Weatherby at 30-40 yards. The pipsqueak, soft bullet at way too fast made it to the other side.
A friend shot his 3 times, before finishing it with a neck shot. It kept getting up, and he kept knocking it down while walking toward it. The bullets never made it into the body cavity. This was with the .270 Weatherby at something over 200 yards for the first couple shots. Needless to say, he never wants to see another one. There's a couple dead does mixed in with similar results.
Two other friends are happy, they were getting exits on 8 very dead deer. Sometimes 3 or four exits come to think of it. I'd call results like these mixed, or unpredictable. Who needs that?
I've got a pile of Bergers that are going back into the pile of target bullets. The trouble with that is, pure target shooting without a hunting association to the story bores me.
 
Dogleg did you measure jacket thickness between the two? I think that may be the difference in some calibers. Not sure about lead hardness as well.


If they put a plastic tip on the end to ensure the front section is driven open the same way every time I believe we would hear of more uniform results (be it good or bad). I am thinking a big copper cone with a very small hp out front is to likely to crush inwards, sideways, or blow wide open, giving much different wound characteristics.


The main attraction to these things seems to be, #1 they are the new talk, #2 they have high BC and #3 are very very accurate at long range.


Would not an Amax (listed for medium game by Hornady) or an SST (listed for large game) work as well or is the accuracy just not there?
 
Crankbender said:
Dogleg did you measure jacket thickness between the two? I think that may be the difference in some calibers. Not sure about lead hardness as well.


If they put a plastic tip on the end to ensure the front section is driven open the same way every time I believe we would hear of more uniform results (be it good or bad). I am thinking a big copper cone with a very small hp out front is to likely to crush inwards, sideways, or blow wide open, giving much different wound characteristics.


The main attraction to these things seems to be, #1 they are the new talk, #2 they have high BC and #3 are very very accurate at long range.


Would not an Amax (listed for medium game by Hornady) or an SST (listed for large game) work as well or is the accuracy just not there?
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The jacket seems to be 35 thousandths on both, and is consistent from one end to the other. The A-Max is one of the bullets that I'll be looking into. I've got some SSTs around as well, left over from other projects but I haven't had great luck with them. I'd call the lead in both nearly pure. At least, I can scratch it with my thumbnail without effort, which is my unscientific test for casting muzzleloader bullets.
The Bergers do shoot, these are holding 1/2 MOA to 800 yards at least in elevation. I hate wind.:(
 
Thanx Dleg. I am also looking at the Amax. The 7mm 162g has a very high BC, I bought 2 boxes to shoot out of my T3 for poops and laughs. I may build a specific long range hunting rifle 7mm or 30cal on a 700 action with the long HS mag and have a reamer made around the Amax seated all the way out. We will see.
 
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Dogleg said:
Proved two things to my satisfaction.They're the same thing, and getting pictures of sectioned bullets is harder than it looks.


DSCF2667.jpg
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Looks like the target bullet has a bigger hollow point?

Sorry to hear of your disasters...Would pi$$ me off too.

After loosing a two goats to X-bullets and Partitions (they jumped off cliffs before dieing) I decided to try 180 Ballistic tips in my 300Win...Same results as you mentioned....at 200 yards I got 7-10 inch horrible non-fatal wounds (two shots then over the cliff)....With wounds like that I would jump too!
Never again!

The reason I selected the 210gr .308 for my 300 Win is because other hunters (over on Long Range Hunting) using the were having success with it up close and far away.

Do you ever post over there?
 
The hollow points are the same, if I'd ground a little farther into the right hand one it would be easier to see in the picture.

I'm member at LRH but have never posted anything. I don't spend much time there.
 
X-fan said:
Looks like the target bullet has a bigger hollow point?

Sorry to hear of your disasters...Would pi$$ me off too.

After loosing a two goats to X-bullets and Partitions (they jumped off cliffs before dieing) I decided to try 180 Ballistic tips in my 300Win...Same results as you mentioned....at 200 yards I got 7-10 inch horrible non-fatal wounds (two shots then over the cliff)....With wounds like that I would jump too!
Never again!

The reason I selected the 210gr .308 for my 300 Win is because other hunters (over on Long Range Hunting) using the were having success with it up close and far away.

Do you ever post over there?
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I have only shot a couple of goats and am in no way an expert. I shot both of mine in the tip of the shoulder, planned that exact shot, hitting the upper shoulder and jarring the spine with bone fragments puts them down for the count very quickly with minimal kicking...then you just pray they don't slip off the edge...

One of the goats I got should be back from the taxidermists next month, 12 1/2 years old, over 300 pounds on the hoof. He was over 12 inches from the tip of the nose to the eye's, a real hammerhead of a goat.

I shot both of mine with 165 tsx out of a 300wsm, no problem with expansion at all. Depending on the construction of the bullet you are using your shot should change. Tuck a nosler BT or a VLD behind the shoulder (only hitting ribs on the way in) and it's going to be dead, hit the shoulder muscle or bone and it's totally different.

I just loaded up some 190 VLD to try in my 300rum. I will put them into dry newspaper at 500 yards, beside my 200 gr accubonds and see what the results are.
 
Not to be misinterpreted as criticism, but is there really such a significant difference in accuracy/drop/drift in using match/target bullets for hunting?
How much differerence in drop/drift does the VLD profile make at say,600 yards compared to something like an Accubond or Interbond?
I just ordered some Bergers for my 270 but will probably use them on paper and coyotes. :)
 
.308 165 gr Interbond BC .447
.308 168 gr Berger Hunting BC .473

Both fired at 2700 FPS Zeroed at 250 yards

Interbond at 1000 yards -371.4 Inches or 142 clicks
Berger at 1000 yards -354.0 Inches or 135 click

17.4 inch difference on big game such as a deer or elk that could be a miss.

Regardless of the BC when shooting at these ranges your going to know your drop and dial in. The higher BC should help fight wind drift

Only advantage I can see with the berger over the interbond is it will stay super sonic longer so it can reach out a bit further.
 
If you're shooting out to 1000 yards, the retained velocity will allow the bullet to expand a little farther out, but more importantly, it WILL make a difference in your margin of error in judging the wind.
 
308 168gr e-tip bc 503. So why bother with a light VLD? They guys that made all the VLD stuff popular on the video's are using the heavy for caliber VLD's, such as a Berger 180gr 7mm BC roughly .68, Berger 30 cal 210gr BC 0.631, 338 300 gr sierra matchking bc .768.

It doesn't really matter how flat a bullet flies, gravity is realtively constant and easily corrected for. It is the wind drift that is the real advantage to a high bc bullet. Wind is difficult to read, and hard to measure throughout the range of your shot, a high BC gives you a bit of a fudge factor for the wind.

Under 500/600 yards no it doesn't make a huge difference. Going from the interbond from the above post to the etip at the same velocity would make roughly an inch difference in wind drift at 500 yards.
 
I'll throw in my 2 cents since I have sold these bullets and have received some feedback.

Bottom line, these are a soft jacketed bullet and will expand extensively at impact velocities over 2700/2800fps. Quite a few impacts reported here would back that statement up.

They will not bust bone on a consistent basis when going fast. They are very effective on broadside boiler room or CNS shots because of that fragmentation. Forget about exit wounds.

The benefits of the increased accuracy and reduced wind drift is the ability to hit at much further distances. At reduced velocity (say 2400fps and SLOWER), they should work quite nicely and show wound trauma similar to conventional hunting bullets up close.

Barnes has done quite an ad campaign highlighting this. Their tests again confirm what we all suspected, SLOW them down and they work great. Expansion at 1000yds in their test scenerio was excellent.

Avoid bone or strong quartering shots and they will do a good job at LR IF you can hit the target.

At even 300yds, any big game is a large object. Do you need match grade accuracy, maybe but there are better bullet designs that shoot very well.

At 800yds, I want all the mechanical accuracy I can get AND the lighter jacket ensures proper expansion at impact velocities that might leave conventional bullets acting like FMJ's.

As usual, it is just another tool that we can add to our options when hunting game.

IF Berger does use a lighter jacket in their Hunting grade, I would definitely suggest sticking with the target variety.

Slow them down, and they will work nicely. Same would go for the Amax and MK. They have been used with excellent success on some very large game but in all circumstances - way out there at reduced impact velocity

I think a 30-30 and 190gr VLD's would be a very interesting combo for normal hunting distances..

300RUM with the same bullet inside 400yds - not so much...

Jerry

PS, I have not personally hunted with any Berger bullet.
 
bearkilr said:
Not to be misinterpreted as criticism, but is there really such a significant difference in accuracy/drop/drift in using match/target bullets for hunting?
How much differerence in drop/drift does the VLD profile make at say,600 yards compared to something like an Accubond or Interbond?
I just ordered some Bergers for my 270 but will probably use them on paper and coyotes. :)
Click to expand...

I think a major reason to go with the VLD's is that you can get them heavy. I'd always go for the heaviest-for-caliber bullet, which is what Berger reccomends. When looking at loads for my 30-06, I compared 180gr bullets to 210gr VLD's and found that at longer range the VLD's carry noticeably more energy.

How much more? Here's data for 2x reloaded 30-06 loads, as well as one factory 300 win mag load. The 300 is the cheapo stuff, but it does sell like hotcakes and so is a useful comparison I think. I was surprised by the numbers myself...

30-06 Ballistics Table in Yards 180 gr. Accubond, .507 B.C.
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2850 2758 2669 2495 2327 2166 2012
Energy (ft.-lb.) 3246 3041 2847 2487 2165 1876 1617
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 0.7 1.7 0.0 -7.2 -20.9 -42.0


30-06 Ballistics Table in Yards 210 gr.,VLD .631 B.C.
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2650 2580 2510 2375 2243 2116 1993
Energy (ft.-lb.) 3274 3103 2938 2629 2347 2088 1852
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 0.9 2.0 0.0 -8.1 -23.2 -46.1


300 win mag Federal 180gr hot-cor Federal Power Shock
Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Load No Caliber Muzzle 100 Y 200 Y 300 Y 400 Y 500 Y
300WBS 300 Win. Magnum 3502 3013 2582 2200 1864 1570

I found it interesting that if a fellow is going to reload his -06, he's actually better off at longer ranges than the 300 win mag guy buying cheap ammo. Way better if using heavier, aerodynamic bullets.
 
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