Berger VLDs. WTF???

Siggy Stardust

Siggy Stardust

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Very interesting experience at the range today.

Out for the second time with my new SSG 3000 and running some .308 factory ammo over the chrono for the sake of curiosity and to give me a starting point for rolling some handloads.

This unit looooves Hornady 168gr. BTHP Match ammo! Will shoot 0.5-0.75 MOA if I'm doing my part. This shocked the heck out of me the first time I saw it - factory rifle, factory ammo. Awesome.


Now, regarding the VLDs... I purchased a pricey box of HSM brand 168gr. Berger VLDs at Cablea's at the same time I purchased the Hornadys and figured I'd give them a run today.

I will say here and now that I have NEVER seen a rifle choke and gag like this...

Shooting at 200m, I went from 2 5-rnd groups of Hornadys measuring 1.5-2.0" to about a 12-14" group with the HSM/Bergers. Interestingly, the Hornadys all chronoed 2700-2750fps while the HSM all sailed along at an average of 2560fps.

Both factory loads measured COLs of 2.800" as would be expected. SSG rifling twist is 1:11 over 24".

Anyone know what the hell would cause something like this?

Another gent who witnessed this chaos told a story about a friend of his using VLDs in a Sako 7mm STW who experienced exactly the same thing. He said Noslers of the same weight would all go in the same hole, "...but the VLDs? F###!".

He then said that what rectified the situation there was seating the VLDs waaaaaayyyy out - pretty much as close as you can get to the lands without touching.

Is this, in fact, the case? I do have some VLDs I'd purchased earlier for trying in handloads, so I'll sure give this a shot. Does anyone have any similar experiences or suggestions?
 
Berger VLD's are very sensitive to seating depth. I know a friends Tikka T3 Tactical in 300WM grouped terribly with factory loaded VLD's as well. Maybe they are good in other rifles though, small sample size. Very accurate bullet though once you have them tuned to your rifle.
 
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Siggy Stardust said:
Very interesting experience at the range today.

Out for the second time with my new SSG 3000 and running some .308 factory ammo over the chrono for the sake of curiosity and to give me a starting point for rolling some handloads.

This unit looooves Hornady 168gr. BTHP Match ammo! Will shoot 0.5-0.75 MOA if I'm doing my part. This shocked the heck out of me the first time I saw it - factory rifle, factory ammo. Awesome.


Now, regarding the VLDs... I purchased a pricey box of HSM brand 168gr. Berger VLDs at Cablea's at the same time I purchased the Hornadys and figured I'd give them a run today.

I will say here and now that I have NEVER seen a rifle choke and gag like this...

Shooting at 200m, I went from 2 5-rnd groups of Hornadys measuring 1.5-2.0" to about a 12-14" group with the HSM/Bergers. Interestingly, the Hornadys all chronoed 2700-2750fps while the HSM all sailed along at an average of 2560fps.

Both factory loads measured COLs of 2.800" as would be expected. SSG rifling twist is 1:11 over 24".

Anyone know what the hell would cause something like this?

Another gent who witnessed this chaos told a story about a friend of his using VLDs in a Sako 7mm STW who experienced exactly the same thing. He said Noslers of the same weight would all go in the same hole, "...but the VLDs? F###!".

He then said that what rectified the situation there was seating the VLDs waaaaaayyyy out - pretty much as close as you can get to the lands without touching.

Is this, in fact, the case? I do have some VLDs I'd purchased earlier for trying in handloads, so I'll sure give this a shot. Does anyone have any similar experiences or suggestions?
Click to expand...
COL is not a sound measurement to use. You need to measure how far off the lands the bullet is and adjust that. Google bullet or cartridge comparator. My brain is fuzzy right now, but VLDs often have to be at or jammed in the lands to shoot well. Check out Berger "hybrids" and why people find them easier to use most times.
 
I have found berger in my guns to shoot best from 10thou jammed to 100thou off depending on gun and caliber. Loading seating depth vlds in factory ammo is just plain dumb. Expensive experiment for the small chance it will work. Load them by hand and tune them and they shoot lights out.

As a side note I had a stupid accurate 178bthp hornady load for my 308. That's a fantastic bullet for a 308 case.
 
When Bergers were strictly a handloading proposition for target shooters, everyone knew that they liked to be jammed in the rifling and weren't for hunting. Load development was expected and short throats reign. Magazines? Who wants to use a magazine?

When the market changed and there was more money in selling to hunters, all of a sudden COL didn't mean much anymore. Can't reach the lands with the mile long saami chamber and throat? Don't worry about they like to jump. Need them to fit your mag? Just cram 'em in farther. Don't handload? No problem, someone will do the cramming for you, just buy it and don't think too much. You might even get lucky.
 
Its like pool.
the very small round tip is way more accurate than the big flat one but will also increase any mistake in alignment

Slighly crooked chamber, neck runout,uneaven neck tention,etc.
to get good results with sequents ogives, everything has to be on the notch
 
Thanks for all the info, gang!

This is certainly what I expected to be the case given the story I heard at the range. As I said, the HSM/Berger factory ammo was loaded to the standard 2.800" COL. After a little monkeying with my Hornady comparator, it turns out those VLDs are sitting on the lands at right around 2.940" COL!

YiKeS!

Judging from the comments here, I think I'll make a few loads to start working it back from the lands 1-3 thou and see how that goes!

Will be sure to post results!
 
Might be a lucky bastard.

IN my Rem 700 300 RUM, the 210 shoots .5 moa seated at a 3.600 !

Go figure.

Mush
 
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