Best 762/308 ar type

beltfed said:
"Best 7.62/.308 AR type"

Knight's Armament is making arguably the best .308 ARs out there.
Not best in class / great for the money / but THE best.
If you care about costs, LMT is making the next best thing that costs less.

Before this gets drowned out by the bush shooters, let me say while the RFB (and XCR-M) are interesting firearms in their own right which enjoy non-restricted status to boot - they are two POS next to an SR-25
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This man speaks the truth.
The xcr-m and rfb's accuracy is a joke even compared to a cheap dpms 308 ar.
The h&k's are nice, but not as accurate as the knights or lmt.

To elaborate further on the sr vs mws, the kac is a better carbine due to it's lighter weight and lighter recoil. The mws generally is more accurate if it's a model with the stainless barrel. The mws is heavier, and recoils more than the sr, so it's a better gun for proned out shooting. Those with noodle arms need not apply for running the mws like a carbine...
 
I agree about the XCR-M as I was not impressed with the groups I could shoot, but I was rather surprised with the RFB

Brian46 said:
Setting up the RFB for hunting, these were the last rounds of the day after the scope and gas system was dialed in:

100yds shooting 180gr factory loaded nosler partitions
(excuse the crappy cell phone pic)

11viipy.jpg
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Brian46 said:
I agree about the XCR-M as I was not impressed with the groups I could shoot, but I was rather surprised with the RFB
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Show me four more five round groups on the same piece of paper holding 1 moa and I'll be impressed. And I'll purchase another rfb !
I've seen similar results to that out of my old xcr-m. Heck, I've seen three round results like that out of an sks with surplus.
 
ntm said:
Show me four more five round groups on the same piece of paper holding 1 moa and I'll be impressed. And I'll purchase another rfb !
I've seen similar results to that out of my old xcr-m. Heck, I've seen three round results like that out of an sks with surplus.
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what do I get out of it? you buying another RFB doesn't do me much good.

show me even a single 3 round group with factory hunting ammo out of either of those two rifles better than mine and I would be impressed.
 
Brian46 said:
what do I get out of it? you buying another RFB doesn't do me much good.

show me even a single 3 round group with factory hunting ammo out of either of those two rifles better than mine and I would be impressed.
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Is that not a two round group, with a third round an inch or two to the left ?
You owe it to yourself to be realistic about the rifles accuracy, so that you know where the limits of a humane shot are if you're hunting with it.
Shoot four, five round groups on the same piece of paper with it and take the average. That is the realistic accuracy of that rifle.
I think you'll have quite a reality check...
 
ntm said:
Is that not a two round group, with a third round an inch or two to the left ?
You owe it to yourself to be realistic about the rifles accuracy, so that you know where the limits of a humane shot are if you're hunting with it.
Shoot four, five round groups on the same piece of paper with it and take the average. That is the realistic accuracy of that rifle.
I think you'll have quite a reality check...
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you should go back and read my post with the pic, it is exactly as I posted it.

I can go shoot exactly what you want and if the results are different than what you expect you will tell me to do something different and come back with pics again, when will your game end?

It is a hunting rifle plain and simple, you shoot round after round consecutively and the POI shifts, it isn't a precision rifle with a heavy barrel.

I'd post a pic of the deer I took this year at just over a hundred yards with a perfect head shot but it is a little graphic for this forum and certainly won't change your mind.
 
Brian46 said:
why you need 2 and what does that do for me?
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I sold the one I had after trying for some time to find an accurate load for it.
I would purchase another if you could show me that perhaps I had a poor example of the rfb.
This does nothing for you, other than restore some credibility in my eyes, and likely the eyes of any experienced shooters that have read this three round monkey business.
I mean, seriously, every other rfb out there that's been accuracy tested with precision hand load ladders is coming in at 1.5+moa.
But yours shoots a sub moa three round group one time, with factory ammo, and the rfb is suddenly as accurate as a kac or lmt ?
Your defensiveness here tells me all I need about your confidence in your rfb ever repeating a group like that...
 
Dietz said:
The very best is KAC, the next very best is LMT.
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Yes and no. I have 5 308AR rifles. None of them are KAC. If I want an accurate 16" carbine that is soft shooting due to the rifle lenth gas system, full ambi controls, excellent fit/finish then sure. But if I want a DM 20" rifle them I prefer other choices such as the LMT MWS. Monolithic rail, Mike Rock 5R stainless barrel, ambi mag release (Same lower as KAC just minus ambi bolt release). The KAC doesn't shoot lighter once you get into the rifle lengths.

If looking for a target rifle then DPMS or Armalite would Becky choice not KAC. If wanting a 24" barrel SS rifle then you need to look at other choices.

If you want the best 16" carbine in 308 then yup KAC. But once you get into the rifles I actually prefer other choices. The LMT is actually my favourite DM rifle. KAC would be second with Armalite third if cost wasn't a factor. I should point out that there are even a couple things I prefer on the Armalite not just the cost difference.

There really is no one best at this time. HK for piston system, KAC for carbine, GAP for precision, LMT for DM rifle. Then we get into the high value for price options...
 
The only reason to pick the MWS over an SR-25 in any length is 1) Price 2) Caliber options of the MWS over the KAC.
(IMHO)
 
Epoxy7 said:
Yes and no. I have 5 308AR rifles. None of them are KAC. If I want an accurate 16" carbine that is soft shooting due to the rifle lenth gas system, full ambi controls, excellent fit/finish then sure. But if I want a DM 20" rifle them I prefer other choices such as the LMT MWS. Monolithic rail, Mike Rock 5R stainless barrel, ambi mag release (Same lower as KAC just minus ambi bolt release). The KAC doesn't shoot lighter once you get into the rifle lengths.

If looking for a target rifle then DPMS or Armalite would Becky choice not KAC. If wanting a 24" barrel SS rifle then you need to look at other choices.

If you want the best 16" carbine in 308 then yup KAC. But once you get into the rifles I actually prefer other choices. The LMT is actually my favourite DM rifle. KAC would be second with Armalite third if cost wasn't a factor. I should point out that there are even a couple things I prefer on the Armalite not just the cost difference.

There really is no one best at this time. HK for piston system, KAC for carbine, GAP for precision, LMT for DM rifle. Then we get into the high value for price options...
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I fully agree with this.

I myself am an LMT fanboy.
 
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ntm said:
I sold the one I had after trying for some time to find an accurate load for it.
I would purchase another if you could show me that perhaps I had a poor example of the rfb.
This does nothing for you, other than restore some credibility in my eyes, and likely the eyes of any experienced shooters that have read this three round monkey business.
I mean, seriously, every other rfb out there that's been accuracy tested with precision hand load ladders is coming in at 1.5+moa.
But yours shoots a sub moa three round group one time, with factory ammo, and the rfb is suddenly as accurate as a kac or lmt ?
Your defensiveness here tells me all I need about your confidence in your rfb ever repeating a group like that...
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there is no defensiveness,I know what it is capable of, it is not going to do multiple 5 round groups without opening up in one sitting from heat, shoot a 3 round group, no problem.

It is a hunting rifle at best, I was surprised myself with the accuracy for what it is, but it is not a match rifle like others are talking about above.
 
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beltfed said:
The only reason to pick the MWS over an SR-25 in any length is 1) Price 2) Caliber options of the MWS over the KAC.
(IMHO)
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The monolithic upper is top notch. As is the rest of the rifle.

The quality of the LMT isn't any less. Heck I suspect they are practicaly the same company. LMT and KAC work together and have a product differentation that seems to compliment rather than compete.
 
ntm said:
I sold the one I had after trying for some time to find an accurate load for it.
I would purchase another if you could show me that perhaps I had a poor example of the rfb.
This does nothing for you, other than restore some credibility in my eyes, and likely the eyes of any experienced shooters that have read this three round monkey business.
I mean, seriously, every other rfb out there that's been accuracy tested with precision hand load ladders is coming in at 1.5+moa.
But yours shoots a sub moa three round group one time, with factory ammo, and the rfb is suddenly as accurate as a kac or lmt ?
Your defensiveness here tells me all I need about your confidence in your rfb ever repeating a group like that...
Click to expand...

When the RFB first came out I was involved in accuracy testing for it. We could get 3 round groups in 1 moa, but it opened up after 3. 1.5 was the best 5 rounds. I seem to recall the load was 168 SMK 43.4 varget, federal brass CCI BR primers.

Of interest was the accuracy a number of people had with cheap 145 MFS ammo. I've seen decent 10 round groups posted from a reliable source. Seems the non brass case and 145 ammo were very good in the RFB. I have some but haven't tested it yet. Also of note was that checking the chamber the RFB has a 7.62 chamber not 308. I'm using the scope on another project but it will go back on the RFB. Got sidetracked after the initial flurry of testing and needed the scope.

The 175 SMK I loaded for the RFB turned into an exceptional round for the Armalite AR10. Which was great because the RFB didn't like it. What works in the AR10 24" SS .1:11.25 DnD rifle also works well in the bolt action 5R milspec. It's nice being able to interchange ammo.

No disagreement here that a decent 308AR with a good trigger and barrel will smoke the RFB for accuracy. Let's face it short of a 50K WA2000 not much can run with the 308 AR accuracy wise. The fact it's restricted should be a crime. The modern sporting rifle was deemed prohib then changed to restricted under the guise of no legitimate hunting or sporting purpose. They restricted our generations Mauser action.
 
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There is obvious collaboration when one compares their .308 guns, no doubt.
It all boils down to the little details with KAC stuff - they put in that extra bit of effort and it shows...
May or may not matter to some however, and that's cool too.
 
beltfed said:
There is obvious collaboration when one compares their .308 guns, no doubt.
It all boils down to the little details with KAC stuff - they put in that extra bit of effort and it shows...
May or may not matter to some however, and that's cool too.
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The little details are what have made KAC and also LMT too.

Honestly the base AR10 system is in many ways better. But like you said it's the details that have given KAC a big edge. However there are a few things that should be noted when you look close. The Armalite for example has forged 7175 upper and lower. LMT has just gone forged for gen2 in their upper. The aluminum rating of the Armalite is still higher. Most likely makes no difference but still it's interesting. The basic AR10 bolt I also prefer over the LMT/KAC 308 bolt. Take away the coating, double extracters (gen2) or rounded lugs of the enhanced bolt and you have a nicely done DPMS bolt. The base Armalite design is nicer but also doesn't include all the enhancements. But then again until the last few years when 16" 308 rifles became the rage it wasn't needed. The 16" 308 is like a shorty for the AR15. It introduces new issues.

I've just recently managed to source the last part needed for my Armalite SASS 20". I'll be pitting the LMT MWS with 20" SS barrel against it. I doubt there will be much if any difference in accuracy. The differences will be in the options/features and price. Now my LMT was bought at the right time so the costs are actually pretty close unlike today. At first glance the LMT should smoke the SASS especially in terms of Internet cred. But we will see. When you factor in current prices it puts another spin on things.
 
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Epoxy7 said:
When the RFB first came out I was involved in accuracy testing for it. We could get 3 round groups in 1 moa, but it opened up after 3. 1.5 was the best 5 rounds.
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pretty much what I have found with my limited testing.

I'm not sure where the idea that many people have of it being a 2-3 moa gun comes from.
 
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