Best ammo/projectile for elk/moose? First time hunting
- Thread starter MAX308
- Start date
- Location
- Western Manitoba
My first elk was taken with 165 grain Federal Premium 308 Win. Might have been a Sierra bullet, but I do not remember. At about 175 yards. Hit poorly. Tough way to learn, but shot placement trumps just about anything else. Imagine there is a soccer ball, or maybe a basket ball, that has it's front edge between the animals front legs, in its chest. Gotta hit that ball - two lungs, heart and lung(s), blood vessels above the heart - all will have it down within 25 or 30 yards. Gotta hit that ball whether he is facing you, quartering toward or quartering away. An animal that is running straight away does not really give a new hunter a shot. If you are very cool, and very, very good shot, you might consider a neck shot, but must spend time to understand where that neck spine is - and you do not have very much to actually hit. Heart/lung shot is way higher percentage shot.
How far? Get your gear together. 8" or 10" paper plates stapled to a wood lathe. Make up half dozen. Place at random distances. Pick a target and take one shot - is there a hole in the plate - Yes or No - anywhere in that plate. If Yes, then you just showed you can hit the kill zone at that distance. If you missed, you just proved that you can not. Your max range, is the distance that you and your gear can put a hole in that dinner plate with the first shot - every time. If you do not have much trigger time, that might actually be not very far away.
By the way - that first elk of mine - I fired the first shot at about 7:45 AM or so - just barely into legal shooting time. I had been standing on a trail in the dark waiting for legal start time before starting a slow walk. I fired my second shot into back of its head about 10:30 AM - that was a long, long morning of tracking!! My first shot had hit rear end of the close side lung, then across the diaphram/liver. Bullet was under the hide on the far side - very nicely mushroomed. We ended up about 2 miles from where I fired first - easily 3 or 4 times that distance covered while tracking. I must have raised it 3 or 4 times - heard it get up and go, but could not see it - a few more steps and could see its bed in the snow. So much better to see them go down within sight, and stay there!!!
That would have been late September about 1982 or so - there used to be an across the counter antler-less elk (some years was either-### elk) in area south of Hudson Bay, Sask. So pretty much continuous mixed poplar and spruce bush with some open grassy meadows/swamps - all pretty flat, except ravines near creeks and small river. That first one of mine was a cow - 313 pounds carcass rolled into the cooler at the abattoir. Last time we were up there - 2002(?), there was active logging going on taking out all the spruce...
How far? Get your gear together. 8" or 10" paper plates stapled to a wood lathe. Make up half dozen. Place at random distances. Pick a target and take one shot - is there a hole in the plate - Yes or No - anywhere in that plate. If Yes, then you just showed you can hit the kill zone at that distance. If you missed, you just proved that you can not. Your max range, is the distance that you and your gear can put a hole in that dinner plate with the first shot - every time. If you do not have much trigger time, that might actually be not very far away.
By the way - that first elk of mine - I fired the first shot at about 7:45 AM or so - just barely into legal shooting time. I had been standing on a trail in the dark waiting for legal start time before starting a slow walk. I fired my second shot into back of its head about 10:30 AM - that was a long, long morning of tracking!! My first shot had hit rear end of the close side lung, then across the diaphram/liver. Bullet was under the hide on the far side - very nicely mushroomed. We ended up about 2 miles from where I fired first - easily 3 or 4 times that distance covered while tracking. I must have raised it 3 or 4 times - heard it get up and go, but could not see it - a few more steps and could see its bed in the snow. So much better to see them go down within sight, and stay there!!!
That would have been late September about 1982 or so - there used to be an across the counter antler-less elk (some years was either-### elk) in area south of Hudson Bay, Sask. So pretty much continuous mixed poplar and spruce bush with some open grassy meadows/swamps - all pretty flat, except ravines near creeks and small river. That first one of mine was a cow - 313 pounds carcass rolled into the cooler at the abattoir. Last time we were up there - 2002(?), there was active logging going on taking out all the spruce...
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I wouldnt use an A-max simply because its a target bullet.
Soft points, mono's, bonded, partition, etc.
Ive had good luck with norma oryx but $$
In 308 I would go with 165 or 180 grain. I like bonded bullets (Accubond or Interbond), Partition is a good choice as well.
For years i used 180 gr winchester Silver Tips but they no longer make them, the current silvertip isn't the same one and i wouldn't use it for moose.
For years i used 180 gr winchester Silver Tips but they no longer make them, the current silvertip isn't the same one and i wouldn't use it for moose.
Any of the premium bullets are usually the best choice, as has been stated. Which is anything bonded (accubond, interbond, etc) or monolithic/solid copper (tsx, gmx, e-tip, etc)or a partition/A-frame double chamber style.
Cup and core, which are the cheaper bullets still kill well. They're just more sensitive to hitting hard bone as they're not as structurally sound due to the jacket and core potentially separating. That said, they're probably still responsible for most of the filled tags every year. Overall, don't overthink it and pick what your gun shoots well.
Cup and core, which are the cheaper bullets still kill well. They're just more sensitive to hitting hard bone as they're not as structurally sound due to the jacket and core potentially separating. That said, they're probably still responsible for most of the filled tags every year. Overall, don't overthink it and pick what your gun shoots well.
I would stay away from most target bullets. they will perform ok on deer most times but will fail on thick skin heavy bone more often than not due to a thin jacket.unless you are shooting them a ways out there and velocity is lower. Stick to std cup and core and shoot behind the shoulder or bonded/ partitions/ lead free for the larger game.
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Scenars, Amax's, ELD's, VLDs, TMK's will kill the heck out of critters if applied correctly. By that I mean as a general rule avoiding ball joints and shooting lungs at longer ranges. I dislike how much bloodshot they can produce but am not so blind as to deny their effectiveness in some scenarios.
As a general rule for average cartridges at average ranges, average bullets will get the job done. The .308 certainly qualifies as an average performing cartridge Premiums are worth considering but Id be just as happy with 165 or 180 grain interlocks or similar soft points or some of the tougher tipped bullets, 180 NBT and SST come to mind. I'd pick a bullet and get learning your abilities, we are usually the weakest link in the system.
As a general rule for average cartridges at average ranges, average bullets will get the job done. The .308 certainly qualifies as an average performing cartridge Premiums are worth considering but Id be just as happy with 165 or 180 grain interlocks or similar soft points or some of the tougher tipped bullets, 180 NBT and SST come to mind. I'd pick a bullet and get learning your abilities, we are usually the weakest link in the system.
Hollow Point
CGN Regular
- Location
- New Brunswick
168 gr ttsx. as close as you can call them.
Nosler partitions for me. Range? Lots of variables, like bullet selection can it perform down to 1500 ft/lbs, are your velocities close to the factory ammo published velocities? So you can reference their ballistic data. Hard to say exact probably pushing it to 300 yards, if using accubonds or partitions more like 200 yards because they need minimum 1800 ft/lbs to perform. The number for moose and elk on many websites is you need minimum 1500 ft/lbs of remaining energy to humanly kill, but like I said lots of variables and the biggest one is can the bullet expand and penetrate at 1500 ft/lbs but also hold together at close shots when the energy is way higher?? That’s why I stick to partitions sure they have a minimum higher number (1800 ft/lbs) but they are known to hold 70% of its weight and stay together on those close shots where the energy is high especially if he’s quartered to you and you gotta bust through his shoulder to get to the lungs
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Thank you. I will remember that
- Location
- Saskatchewan
What is "best" is always an open question. I've used a .308 quite a lot for both species, and observed many others over the years. There are exceptions to these rules once you know enough, but you can't go wrong with the following:
My "rules" are
- avoid any bullet that was built for target shooting or long range use. They open too quickly when heavy bone is hit, (like the humerus / scapula joint) and may not penetrate sufficiently. Some good target bullets like Sierra match expand erratically on game, if at all. Some bullets like the Hornady SST and Berger are built to open very quickly and fragment. They do kill deer quickly, and elk or moose with lung shots, but may not penetrate enough on elk or moose with a shoulder hit.
- avoid 150 grain or lighter bullets. Penetration is more important than maximum speed or maximum expansion on very large animals. Medium or heavy for caliber is the way to go.
- forget about shooting at over 300 yards / meters. No beginner, and nearly no experienced hunter should be shooting at ranges longer than that. It is seldom required anyway if you know how to hunt, and the chance of wounding and losing an animal goes up exponentially at longer ranges. How good of a tracker are you? How good are you at hitting a wounded and running animal at over 300 yards with a follow up shot? Closer is ALWAYS better. Try to get close!
- keep shooting until the animal has hit the ground. One more hole represents a lot less uneccesary pain and less wasted meat than one hole not enough.
- My suggestion is to choose .308 ammunition that is loaded with bonded or partition or all copper bullets, in 165 grain weight. Or 180 grain standard bullets would be OK too. I've had very good and consistent service from 165 gr. Nosler Partition, Accubond, Barnes TSX, Norma Oryx, and even Remington Core Lokt. In 180 grain I've had satisfactory performance from the ones listed previously plus standard Winchester Power Points and Federal Vital Shok or Fusion.
My "rules" are
- avoid any bullet that was built for target shooting or long range use. They open too quickly when heavy bone is hit, (like the humerus / scapula joint) and may not penetrate sufficiently. Some good target bullets like Sierra match expand erratically on game, if at all. Some bullets like the Hornady SST and Berger are built to open very quickly and fragment. They do kill deer quickly, and elk or moose with lung shots, but may not penetrate enough on elk or moose with a shoulder hit.
- avoid 150 grain or lighter bullets. Penetration is more important than maximum speed or maximum expansion on very large animals. Medium or heavy for caliber is the way to go.
- forget about shooting at over 300 yards / meters. No beginner, and nearly no experienced hunter should be shooting at ranges longer than that. It is seldom required anyway if you know how to hunt, and the chance of wounding and losing an animal goes up exponentially at longer ranges. How good of a tracker are you? How good are you at hitting a wounded and running animal at over 300 yards with a follow up shot? Closer is ALWAYS better. Try to get close!
- keep shooting until the animal has hit the ground. One more hole represents a lot less uneccesary pain and less wasted meat than one hole not enough.
- My suggestion is to choose .308 ammunition that is loaded with bonded or partition or all copper bullets, in 165 grain weight. Or 180 grain standard bullets would be OK too. I've had very good and consistent service from 165 gr. Nosler Partition, Accubond, Barnes TSX, Norma Oryx, and even Remington Core Lokt. In 180 grain I've had satisfactory performance from the ones listed previously plus standard Winchester Power Points and Federal Vital Shok or Fusion.
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This will likely prove far more important than the exact bullet choice. Most modern factory ammunition intended for hunting purposes tends to be very good at the job. The variables instead tend to be how well your rifle shoots the ammunition, and how well you shoot the rifle.
fixed it for you. I see far to many guys doing everything for prep but as soon as they have tine groups on paper stop and "good enough". Rarely do I see people try shooting at the distances they are likely to encounter in the field let alone types of positions field use actually ends up presenting.
Find the pullet that produces excellent results on paper(also correct for target species). Now you know what your rifle likes and is sighted in. This should be the last time you should hit the bench. Obtain a healthy amount of the ammunition you are planning on using and practice. Practice standing, practice off of sticks, kneeling, sitting, prone. Try jogging a little to elevate your heart level and then try again. While this may not be the exact shooting scenario you will see yourself in in the field. Your confidence in your abilities should be much higher.
I feel to much emphasis is placed on the equipment and not enough on the actual hunting. Learning the area you intend to hunt, how the animals behave and in the field level marksmanship.
Leave the long range shooting for paper and gongs. You will not wound paper or loose paper and be stuck with the moral dilemma that follows.
I'd rather brag about stalking close(hunting) rather than make a shot where more variables than I'm comfortable dealing with(ethical standpoint) such that is OFTEN seen with "snipping" at animals.
It is our job after all is dispatch of the prey that we hunt in the most expedient manner available. Even if that means passing up a shot.
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