Best Bedside Defense Shotgun

Gotta reply again.
I think that a 3"magnum heavy Turkey load with large shot is definitely a reasonable load for an "in the home" defensive situation.
You've got maybe 10 yards distance. My reasoning is the smaller shot would cause less pass through damage although I have not tested this theory. But the bulk of the 2oz of copperplated shot would retain a very tight pattern at such a short distance even in an imp cylinder bore.
I suppose it's redundant though because a 2 3/4" buckshot load would function (in the same circumstance and distance) better. My only concern with that larger pellet size would be what lies beyond my target. The Turkey load limits my range but I also don't require 40yards.

Gotta say I'm enjoying the responses but there's a few trolls in here lol.
My vote is oficially mossberg 500 persuader with my #4 Turkey loads.
 
I have to reply one more time too :)

Birdshot only enters the debate when there is a concern for overpenetration. There is a definate trade off when compared to the tried and true 00 buck load. That being said I believe at the distances it would be used it would be effective.
 
Grab one of those 12.5 inch grizzlies with the ghost rings from Canada Ammo. Then get a good flashlight and mount it securely to the barrel. Good 00 buck loads at 2.75" will handle any issues that the light doesn't solve on its own. If you anticipate bears being an issue good hard slugs are a better option Brenneke KO are supposed to be excellent if you can find them.
Shoot the gun as much as you can, shoot matches skeet trap or whatever floats your boat but shoot it lots. Buy a follower from S&J .
 
Liberal Party home defence recommendations:

1) Call 911
2) Hide & assume fetal position
3) Wait a while for police to come and save you
4) Wait a while more for police to save you, they are very busy
5) Wait some more, the police are on their way, shouldn't be long now
6) Just a few more minutes, the police should be there any minute now
7) Police are on the way, just be patient
8) Hello, hello...
 
stampede said:
Over penetration is a big issue if you have family in the house or close neighbors. # 8 birdshot will penetrate only 3 or so layers of 1/2 inch drywall therefore it is very deadly on anything shot at directly at close range but relatively safe for others. Maybe you should do a bit of research (or just blaze away with your 00 buckshot and kill everything in range on the other side of walls)
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Over penetration is definitely an issue but to have an attitude of "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" is negligent, to put it politely. I mentioned 00 buck in the context of a proper self-defence round. I would never use it in the home as I am well aware of over penetration, thanks. My shotgun has slugs, that's it.
 
BoogerChew said:
What would be the best bedside defense shotgun out there?

A shotgun that is only ever going to sit beside a night table and be used for defense.
I would like to keep in mind of storage laws, so no restricted firearms.
As the shotgun cannot be stored loaded and the ammunition must be stored separately, in my opinion a shotgun that accepts a magazine would make more sense than a tube fed shotgun as the magazine can be filled with shells and kept in the drawer complying with being "stored separately" and quickly and easily allow for loading the gun.
Also, a short stock for maneuverability and a short barrel and seeing that the longest shot would be 30 feet or so and a large spread would be desirable.

Any ideas or thoughts?
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I had an attempted break in on Friday , my head of security , Charlize, (120lb German Shepard ) stopped them. No shotgun required, her third time in six years. Costs me a steak and door repair.

Meet my head of security
 
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cal9mm said:
I really enjoy these threads, they;
1) demonstrate individual intelligence
2) highlight individual grasp on reality.
Click to expand...

TfaZ2un.gif


Yet, you joined in . Maybe you should give the clear answer for us.
 
ADK said:
Over penetration is definitely an issue but to have an attitude of "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" is negligent, to put it politely. I mentioned 00 buck in the context of a proper self-defence round. I would never use it in the home as I am well aware of over penetration, thanks. My shotgun has slugs, that's it.
Click to expand...

It's not about "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" - that misses the point. The point is that under stressful situations, people make mistakes, misses happen, no matter how much training you have. Police officers shoot themselves in the leg when drawing their pistols in a gunfight. Not often, but it happens. And they train with their pistols far more than the average homeowner does with their shotgun (which, granted, isn't a particularly high standard).

Reducing the risk of collateral damage is a very, very valid consideration. Especially in a home with multiple occupants in multiple rooms, in apartment complexes, and build up residential subdivisions.

ADK said:
Good article on all aspects of defensive shotgun use; (advantages/disadvantages/things to avoid/myths etc...)
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?72535-The-Defensive-Shotgun-How-we-make-it-work-MilCopp-Blog

And another regarding 12 gauge ballistics;
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-le-duty-use
Click to expand...

The second link requires a login, but the first one does have an interesting bit about load choices:

On the subject of ammo and its usefulness, 00 buckshot is what your defensive shotgun should be loaded with. There are people who will tell you that birdshot is the way to go due to its lack of penetration. Those people are, quite frankly, idiots. Penetration is what reaches the vitals of the target and kills. The thing to remember about birdshot is that it is limited in size and it does not expand. The small size of bird shot means that it sheds its energy quickly and will fail to reach the vital areas needed to stop the attacker. Remember; 00 buckshot is better than birdshot for defensive purposes—birdshot is a load which no defensive instructor in their right mind would recommend if they value the life of their students. With 00 buckshot you are shooting nine (the average number) .32 caliber round balls at a target. When all those projectiles are delivered on target, the results can be dramatic. While a well known agency reportedly recommends a different buckshot load, they in fact use the standard 00 buckshot load in their issued shotguns. 00 buckshot is the best round for the shotgun, and you should pattern the shot at ten, fifteen, and twenty-five meters.
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Beyond 10 meters, birdshot isn't going to to much damage. That would be foolish to argue against. The energy dissipation from the light pellets past 10 meters is such that you aren't going to cause enough damage to effectively stop anyone.

But we're not talking distances past 10 meters. We're talking "in the home" ranges, which generally falls into the under 7 meters (20ish feet) range. At those ranges, the spread of shot is quite minimal, even with a short barrel (12.5") shotgun with a cylinder bore. The pellets, even from #8 shot, are massed incredibly close together and strike with a fearsome whallop. Don't think "bullets penetrating with individual force" - think "sledgehammer to the chest" . Without penetrating, the dump in energy will collapse your sternum and crack rips. A center of mass hit, even with birdshot, at those ranges, will (as I mentioned before), stands a very high kill probability not from penetration, but from the concussive force. Lungs collapse and even the heart can be shocked into stopping.

Everything about what load you choose is a tradeoff. Everything. 00Buck and Slugs will penetrate far more, and cause ferocious damage. But they will also easily pass through 4 layers of giprock with eneough energy left over to kill someone. If you live alone on an acreage or in the woods - fine. If you are 100% confident of being able to hit with 100% of your shots. Fine.

But again, if you live in a built up area, or in a home with multiple occupants, you need to think carefully about collateral damage possibilities.

Here's a test for you:

Some day when you're out camping in the bushe, have a friend set an alarm for a time, in the middle of the night, that you're not aware of. Have a paper target outside your tent tacked to a tree. And get an airsoft shotgun, and stick it, unloaded, beside your sleeping bag, with some airsoft pellets in a bag beside it.

Now, when the alarm goes off in the middle of the night, go from a dead sleep, to grabbing, loading your airsoft, in the dark, and getting a shot off at that paper target, in the dark.

How long did it take? Did you actually hit anything? How much fumbling around did you do while you tried to get your bearings?

Balancing internet knowledge with experience is important. Practice with different shot loads at very close ranges, because what we're talking about is in the house defensive use.

If you're absolutely, 100% convinced that buckshot and slugs are the only way to go, and you're 100% sure you can hit your target, in the dark, under stress, then go that route. It will help you sleep better.

If you have even a little doubt that you might miss under those conditions, think carefully about what's going down the pipe when you pull the trigger.
 
ADK said:
Yes, by all means. It's rude to keep people in suspense.
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ok, I'll play.

"Wow. Shooting a piece of meat. You might want to do some more research other than posting Youtube "experts" from a two-second search. Maybe you're easily impressed. Anyone who advocates using birdshot over rounds proven against 2 legged predators deserves what's coming to them. If all you have to look after is yourself, sucks to be you. But if you are responsible for a family, you had damn well better be making more of an effort than Youtube for your research."

Research? by who, people on the internet spouting off their infinite wisdom and many, many gunfights? I deal in reality.

"But there is a reason LEO/MIL shotguns are loaded with 2.75" slugs/OO buckshot and not birdshot."

are you LEO/MIL, speaking on experience or "they use it, so I must too!"?

"Over penetration is definitely an issue but to have an attitude of "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" is negligent, to put it politely. I mentioned 00 buck in the context of a proper self-defence round. I would never use it in the home as I am well aware of over penetration, thanks. My shotgun has slugs, that's it."

now we get to the fun part. over penetration is an issue, especially with slugs, and I wouldn't worry about that bad guy, he probably ran away as soon as you pointed the shotgun at him let alone, started calmly firing at him, hitting a moving target, aiming very true, under low light conditions, with adrenaline flowing. I envy you. that's the equivalent of threading a needle while walking; is it possible? sure, but I bet you miss a couple times too. so here I ask, are you defending yourself and your family or are you actively engaging him? that's the difference between a civilian and police, and I'm not even gonna talk about military because that's a whole other beast. A civilian defensive posture is; avoid, deter, engage if necessary. police is; intercept, neutralize, and engage if necessary.

now going back two steps, like I said, since you are the pinnacle of calm in a stressful situation you wont have to worry about this, BUT what about your neighbour, you know that one? the one you just had a beer with sunday while watching the game with? BTW that was the right call. Calgary won fair and square. The one whose kid just caught YOUR slug in HIS head? after Nearly hitting the bad guy, hit your outside wall passed through your drywall, insulation, plywood, vinyl siding across 5 ft and into the boys bedroom. SHOULD, YOU MISS, even near hit the bad guy! do you think he'll come over next Friday?

reality is; yes 00 buckshot is optimal for engaging a human being, slugs are better, especially for police (not slugs, and buckshot is questionable for room clearing because they are responsible for each and every slug and pellet. even the near hit one)because they are seeking to actively engage that human being one way or another. further to that, that is a worst case scenario, full stop. BUT, birdshot SHOULD NOT be ruled out. it minimizes the penetration to almost negligible but at the distances involved in house, to be hit with an once and a half, even an once on lead flying at 1300ish fps, will #### your day up.

1) the racking of a shotgun, may or probably not have an effect. but looking down the barrel of a shotgun.......... that's something else. that little 12 gauge hole, becomes a 12 ft hole winking at you.
2) your adrenaline is pumping and should you have to pull the trigger, in the dark, moving target, focusing kinda on your sight and kinda on him, while shaking in a less than ideal position. first the very sound, and flash should make him rethink his life choices, pending that, you have 7ish more rounds to help him change his mind. he doesn't even need to be hit or know your load to accomplish this.
3)"he who fires first has the advantage" whether you hit him or not, the psychological advantage is yours (or his, if he manages to fire first, you know, because that bad guy is just as aware of your background as you are of his). further to this, a hit is a bonus, because you just made it real for him. now tell me (im not really good at math) the chances of 100ish pellets spreading out and hitting even a couple vs 9? see point 2.
4)at extreme close range, a direct hit of #8 lead shot WILL, at worse, peel the flesh from the bone, at best (peel flesh from bone, crush bone, puncture eyes and penetrate sinus cavity and enter skull or as I like to call it, cranium pinball, crush and shred larynx, penetrate ribcage and crush ribs, shred stomach and intestine, shred genitals and sever femoral arteries) be fatal. might not be instant or even fatal, but if he doesn't succumb to his injuries, I highly doubt he'll be picking up chicks at the dance club. AKA. #### YOUR DAY UP, SON!

00 buck and slugs kill by penetration and exsanguinating trauma, Birdshot by penetration and blunt force trauma. the wad will kill you too at those distances.

lightfighter? interesting usually that site is reserved for active military. and infantry (combat arms at best) at that. and if I remember correctly, you have to prove it.

but, who am I? as far as you'll ever know, I'm a nobody. on the internet.

oh and almost forgot you; "Yet, you joined in . Maybe you should give the clear answer for us." there is none. whatever floats your boat, reality or fantasy wise.
 
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grelmar said:
It's not about "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" - that misses the point. The point is that under stressful situations, people make mistakes, misses happen, no matter how much training you have. Police officers shoot themselves in the leg when drawing their pistols in a gunfight. Not often, but it happens. And they train with their pistols far more than the average homeowner does with their shotgun (which, granted, isn't a particularly high standard).

Reducing the risk of collateral damage is a very, very valid consideration. Especially in a home with multiple occupants in multiple rooms, in apartment complexes, and build up residential subdivisions.



The second link requires a login, but the first one does have an interesting bit about load choices:



Beyond 10 meters, birdshot isn't going to to much damage. That would be foolish to argue against. The energy dissipation from the light pellets past 10 meters is such that you aren't going to cause enough damage to effectively stop anyone.

But we're not talking distances past 10 meters. We're talking "in the home" ranges, which generally falls into the under 7 meters (20ish feet) range. At those ranges, the spread of shot is quite minimal, even with a short barrel (12.5") shotgun with a cylinder bore. The pellets, even from #8 shot, are massed incredibly close together and strike with a fearsome whallop. Don't think "bullets penetrating with individual force" - think "sledgehammer to the chest" . Without penetrating, the dump in energy will collapse your sternum and crack rips. A center of mass hit, even with birdshot, at those ranges, will (as I mentioned before), stands a very high kill probability not from penetration, but from the concussive force. Lungs collapse and even the heart can be shocked into stopping.

Everything about what load you choose is a tradeoff. Everything. 00Buck and Slugs will penetrate far more, and cause ferocious damage. But they will also easily pass through 4 layers of giprock with eneough energy left over to kill someone. If you live alone on an acreage or in the woods - fine. If you are 100% confident of being able to hit with 100% of your shots. Fine.

But again, if you live in a built up area, or in a home with multiple occupants, you need to think carefully about collateral damage possibilities.

Here's a test for you:

Some day when you're out camping in the bushe, have a friend set an alarm for a time, in the middle of the night, that you're not aware of. Have a paper target outside your tent tacked to a tree. And get an airsoft shotgun, and stick it, unloaded, beside your sleeping bag, with some airsoft pellets in a bag beside it.

Now, when the alarm goes off in the middle of the night, go from a dead sleep, to grabbing, loading your airsoft, in the dark, and getting a shot off at that paper target, in the dark.

How long did it take? Did you actually hit anything? How much fumbling around did you do while you tried to get your bearings?

Balancing internet knowledge with experience is important. Practice with different shot loads at very close ranges, because what we're talking about is in the house defensive use.

If you're absolutely, 100% convinced that buckshot and slugs are the only way to go, and you're 100% sure you can hit your target, in the dark, under stress, then go that route. It will help you sleep better.

If you have even a little doubt that you might miss under those conditions, think carefully about what's going down the pipe when you pull the trigger.
Click to expand...

+1 too. or 2?
 
ADK said:
Over penetration is definitely an issue but to have an attitude of "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" is negligent, to put it politely. I mentioned 00 buck in the context of a proper self-defence round. I would never use it in the home as I am well aware of over penetration, thanks. My shotgun has slugs, that's it.
Click to expand...

Slugs ?

Are there lots of home invading, high on drugs brown bears where you live ?.
 
cal9mm said:
ok, I'll play.

"Wow. Shooting a piece of meat. You might want to do some more research other than posting Youtube "experts" from a two-second search. Maybe you're easily impressed. Anyone who advocates using birdshot over rounds proven against 2 legged predators deserves what's coming to them. If all you have to look after is yourself, sucks to be you. But if you are responsible for a family, you had damn well better be making more of an effort than Youtube for your research."

Research? by who, people on the internet spouting off their infinite wisdom and many, many gunfights? I deal in reality.

"But there is a reason LEO/MIL shotguns are loaded with 2.75" slugs/OO buckshot and not birdshot."

are you LEO/MIL, speaking on experience or "they use it, so I must too!"?

"Over penetration is definitely an issue but to have an attitude of "using birdshot allows you to ignore what is beyond/behind your target" is negligent, to put it politely. I mentioned 00 buck in the context of a proper self-defence round. I would never use it in the home as I am well aware of over penetration, thanks. My shotgun has slugs, that's it."

now we get to the fun part. over penetration is an issue, especially with slugs, and I wouldn't worry about that bad guy, he probably ran away as soon as you pointed the shotgun at him let alone, started calmly firing at him, hitting a moving target, aiming very true, under low light conditions, with adrenaline flowing. I envy you. that's the equivalent of threading a needle while walking; is it possible? sure, but I bet you miss a couple times too. so here I ask, are you defending yourself and your family or are you actively engaging him? that's the difference between a civilian and police, and I'm not even gonna talk about military because that's a whole other beast. A civilian defensive posture is; avoid, deter, engage if necessary. police is; intercept, neutralize, and engage if necessary.

now going back two steps, like I said, since you are the pinnacle of calm in a stressful situation you wont have to worry about this, BUT what about your neighbour, you know that one? the one you just had a beer with sunday while watching the game with? BTW that was the right call. Calgary won fair and square. The one whose kid just caught YOUR slug in HIS head? after Nearly hitting the bad guy, hit your outside wall passed through your drywall, insulation, plywood, vinyl siding across 5 ft and into the boys bedroom. SHOULD, YOU MISS, even near hit! do you think he'll come over next Friday?

reality is; yes 00 buckshot is optimal for engaging a human being, slugs are better, especially for police (not slugs, and buckshot is questionable for room clearing because they are responsible for each and every slug and pellet. even the near hit one)because they are seeking to actively engage that human being one way or another. further to that, that is a worst case scenario, full stop. BUT, birdshot SHOULD NOT be ruled out. it minimizes the penetration to almost negligible but at the distances involved in house, to be hit with an once and a half, even an once on lead flying at 1300ish fps, will #### your day up.

1) the racking of a shotgun, may or probably not have an effect. but looking down the barrel of a shotgun.......... that's something else. that little 12 gauge hole, becomes a 12 ft hole winking at you.
2) your adrenaline is pumping and should you have to pull the trigger, in the dark, moving target, focusing kinda on your sight and kinda on him, while shaking in a less than ideal position. first the very sound, and flash should make him rethink his life choices, pending that, you have 7ish more rounds to help him change his mind. he doesn't even need to be hit or know your load to accomplish this.
3)"he who fires first has the advantage" whether you hit him or not, the psychological advantage is yours (or his, if he manages to fire first, you know, because that bad guy is just as aware of your background as you are of his). further to this, a hit is a bonus, because you just made it real for him. now tell me (im not really good at math) the chances of 100ish pellets spreading out and hitting even a couple vs 9? see point 2.
4)at extreme close range, a direct hit of #8 lead shot WILL, at worse, peel the flesh from the bone, at best (peel flesh from bone, crush bone, puncture eyes and penetrate sinus cavity and enter skull or as I like to call it, cranium pinball, crush and shred larynx, penetrate ribcage and crush ribs, shred stomach and intestine, shred genitals and sever femoral arteries) be fatal. might not be instant or even fatal, but if he doesn't succumb to his injuries, I highly doubt he'll be picking up chicks at the dance club. AKA. #### YOUR DAY UP, SON!

00 buck and slugs kill by penetration and exsanguinating trauma, Birdshot by penetration and blunt force trauma. the wad will kill you too at those distances.

lightfighter? interesting usually that site is reserved for active military. and infantry (combat arms at best) at that. and if I remember correctly, you have to prove it.
Click to expand...

I wasn't serious when soliciting a response from you. And your post shows why. So you deal in reality? You might want to go over your post as there is alot more fantasy than reality. So instead of reading the links I posted we're going to debate the combined wisdom of the Canadian version of AR15.com (here) as opposed to LF?
 
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