Best Heavy 223 Bullet?

[Maple57]

If you are shooting PRS, 77gr is max weight to stay in tactical. 223 is at a disadvantage in open, even with heavy bullets.

That's what the Parrots will say, cause they just repeat what they hear.

You can use a 223 in open division if you want to. Just don't run 88s registered as a tactical shooter or you will get DQ'd.

If you do the ballistic math on a 223 properly configured for heavies and are realistic about what you actually hit, you will find the 223 is every bit good enough for open class for anyone would does not seriously expect to be in the top 10 in a major match.

95 percent of points dropped are not due to the caliber at all... it's position, incorrect scope dope, wind estimation, time utilization etc... not the caliber.

Specific misinformation surrounds the 223 with heavy bullets that is propagated by guys with too short of a throat and therefore lack the case volume needed to hit the speeds required to establish adequate ballistic stability with the 88s, then they complain about long range accuracy degradation as though its the last word on 223.

So a bad rap for ballistic performance with a 223 is mostly generated by guys who don't have a rifle properly configured for the 88-95 grain bullets, or are using bullets in the G1 0.4XX BC range.

 

[Maple57]

That’s what I’m wondering too. Insite arms is gonna do my 223 build and I’m unsure what chamber specs to go with. I want to be able to shoot the 75 eldm’s well at the every least.

The 75s wont hold a candle to the 88s if you have a throat long enough for the 88s, meaning the bearing surface seats just forward of the neck to shoulder junction.

That will give you an OAL seating depth with the 88s around 2.585" or so. (~ by memory)

With lighter bullets like 69SMKs and 75 ELDs you will be jumping to the lands quite a bit. If you try and jam the lands, the bullets will be sticking so far out the neck that you'll get runout problems... if not from seating, then you will from feeding out of the mag when the tip of the bullet hits the feed ramp.

 

[Mystic Precision]

What bullet is that? I’m hoping I can throat it for 69gr smk as well as the 88s. I bought 80gr as well. Will see if I can find a good length.

Sierra 95gr MK... as they say.. game changer

If you want a chamber to suit a wide range of bullets, the most common will be the 223 Wylde. BUT, you are compromising the light bullet set up to house the heavies. If you have a bolt mag, you have a bunch of leeway to seating and the Wylde is a great place to start.

BUT the real point of hot rodding the 223 is to set the throat way out so you can run the heavies and not intrude in the case capacity. That length of throat negates using many lighter options.

If we continue to get high density slow burn powders, the utility of this concept will grow and the ballistic performance is excellent.

It all boils down to suitable powder....

Jerry

 

[kthomas]

That’s what I’m wondering too. Insite arms is gonna do my 223 build and I’m unsure what chamber specs to go with. I want to be able to shoot the 75 eldm’s well at the every least.

Talk to Insite. They chamber up a whole lot of chambers so they would be a great source of knowledge for getting the suitable chamber to fit your purposes.

I wouldn't rule out .224 valkeryie or .223AI for your purposes. Not sure how fast you want to run your heavies, but for numerous reasons it's best to avoid running at the ragged edge of performance of a cartridge.

 

[Maple57]

Sierra 95gr MK... as they say.. game changer

Jerry

Sierra claims 0.600 G1 BC which is great.

What twist rate are you using with the 95s?
What is your over all length with it?
What kind of speeds are you getting with it?
What kind of 100 yard groups are you getting?

 

[Mystic Precision]

I run a 22 Creedmoor... I just mocked up this bullet to answer a question about can it work and fit in a modified mag.

don't have a rifle in the works for this at all.... I will wait to hear how the new Win powder works before getting too excited. OAL is as long as I can fit into a modified MDT polymer mag.

In my testing, the 95gr MK flew better then the predicted BC was. wrt to accuracy, as good as any other set up for LR PRS work. The furthest I have tossed these bullets is 1450yds.

if you are looking to do a LR build around the 95gr MK, happy to supply a barrel with a spec that can work... at least in a 22 CM.

Jerry

 

[Johnny Boom]

That's what the Parrots will say, cause they just repeat what they hear.

You can use a 223 in open division if you want to. Just don't run 88s registered as a tactical shooter or you will get DQ'd.

If you do the ballistic math on a 223 properly configured for heavies and are realistic about what you actually hit, you will find the 223 is every bit good enough for open class for anyone would does not seriously expect to be in the top 10 in a major match.

95 percent of points dropped are not due to the caliber at all... it's position, incorrect scope dope, wind estimation, time utilization etc... not the caliber.

Specific misinformation surrounds the 223 with heavy bullets that is propagated by guys with too short of a throat and therefore lack the case volume needed to hit the speeds required to establish adequate ballistic stability with the 88s, then they complain about long range accuracy degradation as though its the last word on 223.

So a bad rap for ballistic performance with a 223 is mostly generated by guys who don't have a rifle properly configured for the 88-95 grain bullets, or are using bullets in the G1 0.4XX BC range.

Parrot? Lol, that's a good one. Were you at the PRS clinic in Pet a few weeks ago?

Yeah, I know most of the reasons you are going to miss is not because of calibre, but I will stand by my statement that even with heavy bullets, 223 is at a disadvantage in open class PRS.

You do you, but the big problem I see with the 223 Rem is you really have to beat on it to get the heavies going fast enough to run with the 6mm. That's all fine and good until it starts raining and then you start losing primers. I had 75s going at 3000 in my 223 Wylde and had to back off for this reason.

That's why there is interest in the 224 Valkyrie and 22 BR variants, so you can push those 223 heavies fast enough to take advantage of the high BCs.

I love the 223 and it's a great little cartridge, but I do prefer my 6mm after 600 yards or so.

 

[Johnny Boom]

I wouldn't rule out .224 valkeryie or .223AI for your purposes. Not sure how fast you want to run your heavies, but for numerous reasons it's best to avoid running at the ragged edge of performance of a cartridge.

Exactly, couldn't agree more.

 

[rugbydave]

That's what the Parrots will say, cause they just repeat what they hear.

You can use a 223 in open division if you want to. Just don't run 88s registered as a tactical shooter or you will get DQ'd.

If you do the ballistic math on a 223 properly configured for heavies and are realistic about what you actually hit, you will find the 223 is every bit good enough for open class for anyone would does not seriously expect to be in the top 10 in a major match.

95 percent of points dropped are not due to the caliber at all... it's position, incorrect scope dope, wind estimation, time utilization etc... not the caliber.

Specific misinformation surrounds the 223 with heavy bullets that is propagated by guys with too short of a throat and therefore lack the case volume needed to hit the speeds required to establish adequate ballistic stability with the 88s, then they complain about long range accuracy degradation as though its the last word on 223.

So a bad rap for ballistic performance with a 223 is mostly generated by guys who don't have a rifle properly configured for the 88-95 grain bullets, or are using bullets in the G1 0.4XX BC range.

.223 in open class will put you at a disadvantage, that’s not really even debatable. You can crunch the ballistic data all you want and even go to the ends of the earth with regards to “hot-rodding” your .223 and you'll still be at a disadvantage any time there is a switchy or gusty wind. Now whether that matters to you or not is up to you but claiming that it’s not a disadvantage is just asinine.

 

[Maple57]

RugbyDave, like I said, you are putting too much emphasis on the cartridge and not enough on everything else.

Remember that 90 percent of the guys who shoot in PRS end up in the bottom 90 percent of the score board and no caliber is going to change that for any one of them.

Its also about recoil mitigation and spotting shots, (in the air if possible) so there are plenty of ballistically superior rounds that people don't use for PRS because of high recoil.

As for beating on brass, Johnny you clearly don't understand the benefit of a long throat. Not a Wylde throat... that is what I call short. I can hit 3000 FPS with 88 grain bullets and not open a primer hole by 0.001" on any case using 2000MR powder. That's the fastest I've ran 88s but 2000MR is not the most accurate so I don't prefer it.

2900 FPS is real easy and no it is not hard on brass.... again because the throat is long enough.

Think about it objectively.. why guys like a 6BR and compare the 6BR powder charge to the 223 case capacity. When you consider the powder charge to bullet weight ratio, you will find similarities that can only be extracted if the throat is long enough.

The heavy 223 bullets match or even exceed the BC of the 6mm rounds most guys use and I'm running the same speeds, so the difference is moot.

 

[Mystic Precision]

To add a little context to the discussion....



22 Creedmoor on the left.... 223 Rem on the right... pretty close to the same OAL



MDT no binder plate..... modified polymer mag

Jerry

 

[Johnny Boom]

RugbyDave, like I said, you are putting too much emphasis on the cartridge and not enough on everything else.

Remember that 90 percent of the guys who shoot in PRS end up in the bottom 90 percent of the score board and no caliber is going to change that for any one of them.

Its also about recoil mitigation and spotting shots, (in the air if possible) so there are plenty of ballistically superior rounds that people don't use for PRS because of high recoil.

As for beating on brass, Johnny you clearly don't understand the benefit of a long throat. Not a Wylde throat... that is what I call short. I can hit 3000 FPS with 88 grain bullets and not open a primer hole by 0.001" on any case using 2000MR powder. That's the fastest I've ran 88s but 2000MR is not the most accurate so I don't prefer it.

2900 FPS is real easy and no it is not hard on brass.... again because the throat is long enough.

Think about it objectively.. why guys like a 6BR and compare the 6BR powder charge to the 223 case capacity. When you consider the powder charge to bullet weight ratio, you will find similarities that can only be extracted if the throat is long enough.

The heavy 223 bullets match or even exceed the BC of the 6mm rounds most guys use and I'm running the same speeds, so the difference is moot.

Maple, I understand the benefit of a long throat (giggidy). I spec the freebore for my barrels with my gunsmith's advice, so I'm familiar with the concept.

I didn't say I was running heavies (+75) in my Wylde; that was specced to run 75 gr ELD-Ms (well over AR mag length) and even factory ammo in a pinch. However, the hot loads didn't show any signs of pressure until the ammo got wet during a PRS practice, and then boy, did it ever.

That's great that you are getting good results with the heavies with the custom chamber and I am curious to see how this performs for you over a season of competition.

 

[rugbydave]

RugbyDave, like I said, you are putting too much emphasis on the cartridge and not enough on everything else.

Remember that 90 percent of the guys who shoot in PRS end up in the bottom 90 percent of the score board and no caliber is going to change that for any one of them.

Its also about recoil mitigation and spotting shots, (in the air if possible) so there are plenty of ballistically superior rounds that people don't use for PRS because of high recoil.

As for beating on brass, Johnny you clearly don't understand the benefit of a long throat. Not a Wylde throat... that is what I call short. I can hit 3000 FPS with 88 grain bullets and not open a primer hole by 0.001" on any case using 2000MR powder. That's the fastest I've ran 88s but 2000MR is not the most accurate so I don't prefer it.

2900 FPS is real easy and no it is not hard on brass.... again because the throat is long enough.

Think about it objectively.. why guys like a 6BR and compare the 6BR powder charge to the 223 case capacity. When you consider the powder charge to bullet weight ratio, you will find similarities that can only be extracted if the throat is long enough.

The heavy 223 bullets match or even exceed the BC of the 6mm rounds most guys use and I'm running the same speeds, so the difference is moot.

I've got a pretty good handle on most things PRS being that I'm pretty sure I shoot more matches stateside than anyone else on this board...

I also get that your experience in PRS is the Meaford matches where there generally isn't only a single point of difference between 10th and 11th (at least there wasn't this year, source: me, I was 10th). Many of the matches in the States have super tight point spreads and 1 point can be the difference between top 10 or top 20, whatever.

Bottom line, you can't argue both ways. Either .223 is no disadvantage in PRS or it doesn't matter since most won't top 10 anyways but not both. You're basically arguing that caliber makes no difference but 2 shooters shooting in the same conditions with the same skill level, the shooter with the "better" calibre will most likely get a few extra points. Again, whether this matters to you or not is up to you. Just because you drop points from a crappy trigger pull or bad position doesn't mean that if your round bucks the wind better than the next guys that you won't pick up a point here and there when the wind is gusty. Generally you stack the deck in your favour, not the other way around. And no, I'm not talking about heavy recoiling rounds as that is also a disadvantage in PRS. There's a reason that the current orthodoxy is some flavour of 6mm, because it is the better set of compromises for this particular game.

 

[scourge18a]

I can agree with both points.
Fundamentals matter more than caliber, but why not give yourself every advantage you can by using an appropriate caliber with high BC bullets.
And honestly, 1/2 moa is plenty good enough. Take a look at Litz's literature on hit percentages based on accuracy. 1/4 moa makes a difference but no where near as much as the fundamentals. Every bit helps but I think too many people get caught up trying for the smallest groups instead of just shooting more to be a better shooter.
If you can honestly say that that 1/4 moa is what made you miss and you know it wasn't your position, breathing, trigger pull or likely wind reading then get after that accuracy. But there aren't that many people that good to where a 1/4 moa makes the difference.
Above all, practice

 

[Maple57]

I've got a pretty good handle on most things PRS being that I'm pretty sure I shoot more matches stateside than anyone else on this board...

I also get that your experience in PRS is the Meaford matches where there generally isn't only a single point of difference between 10th and 11th (at least there wasn't this year, source: me, I was 10th). Many of the matches in the States have super tight point spreads and 1 point can be the difference between top 10 or top 20, whatever.

Bottom line, you can't argue both ways. Either .223 is no disadvantage in PRS or it doesn't matter since most won't top 10 anyways but not both. You're basically arguing that caliber makes no difference but 2 shooters shooting in the same conditions with the same skill level, the shooter with the "better" calibre will most likely get a few extra points. Again, whether this matters to you or not is up to you. Just because you drop points from a crappy trigger pull or bad position doesn't mean that if your round bucks the wind better than the next guys that you won't pick up a point here and there when the wind is gusty. Generally you stack the deck in your favour, not the other way around. And no, I'm not talking about heavy recoiling rounds as that is also a disadvantage in PRS. There's a reason that the current orthodoxy is some flavour of 6mm, because it is the better set of compromises for this particular game.

I think you are misinterpreting my point Dave.

First off, you are making statements on the assumption that the 223 as I have it configured is not competitive with a 6BR or Dasher. I don't even want to go there again, even if the math says they are ballistically identical.

A guy in the top 10 percent (like yourself) would do well to debate the finest points of one cartridge and load over another.... for himself and others in that top 10 percent group.

As for the other 90 percent, a point here or there is all but meaningless. When they call a guy up for 50th place award or 51st place... does anyone really care? What about 80th place?

At that point in all honesty you are there for the fun and the experience.

Regardless of how I do next year, it wont matter what cartridge I shoot. I will shoot scores consistent with my "entire" skillset, and I just don't see a practical advantage is chasing a 6mm if the 223 is close enough.

We are all free to choose how we want to approach the game, I'm just being realistic. Besides that, I would rather come in last place on my own terms that come in first on someone else's.

 

[Johnny Boom]

Maple, I'm not trying to come across as piling on here, but I think what we're trying to figure out how you are getting the velocities you are getting with the heavy bullets in the 223.

Everyone I know that has shot PRS has chased the velocity dragon, myself included, and eventually gave up running the ragged edge as it came back to sting us during match conditions.

We know the math is favourable with high BC 224 bullets driven up in the 3000ish range, but that's why most guys are going to cases (224 Valkyrie, 22BR, etc.) with more capacities to do this. Not saying you are doing anything irresponsible or crazy and I'm all for innovation, it's just that you are getting results that are unusual, even with the long throat.

I'm very interested to see how this works out for you if you run this for a season. I hope that you will test regularly and post your progress. Like to know how long the barrel lasts as well.

 

[Maple57]

Why does the 6BR do what it does?
Efficiency.

I think its just as simple as most guys are testing 88s with a Wylde chamber, which is shorter than mine. I also have a 223 RPR with a Wylde chamber and its great for 75 ELDs but forget the 88s in it.

You can tell throats are collectively shorter because they are not talking about the mag modifications that are needed to run them this long. I don't know of a single guy who has modified the mag to feed them as long as I am.

Manitou might be running a similar chamber in his single shot F Class rifle, but based on some of his comments, I suspect even his is shorter than mine.

The chamber is simple... throat it so the base of the 88 sits just forward of the neck shoulder junction and run a 1:7 twist. A tight neck would be a bonus for accuracy, but not critical.

If you want to run 2900 FPS use Varget or 8208XBR. If you want to reduce pressures or go faster run 2000-MR.

Neck resize only is the best case scenario for keeping pressures under control.

Most important... don't jam the lands too hard or you might start popping primers.

 

[kthomas]

Maple, I'm not trying to come across as piling on here, but I think what we're trying to figure out how you are getting the velocities you are getting with the heavy bullets in the 223.

Everyone I know that has shot PRS has chased the velocity dragon, myself included, and eventually gave up running the ragged edge as it came back to sting us during match conditions.

We know the math is favourable with high BC 224 bullets driven up in the 3000ish range, but that's why most guys are going to cases (224 Valkyrie, 22BR, etc.) with more capacities to do this. Not saying you are doing anything irresponsible or crazy and I'm all for innovation, it's just that you are getting results that are unusual, even with the long throat.

Chasing the ragged edge of performance almost always ends up in frustration and self induced problems. Might take a few weeks, might be a few months to a year before problems really start manifesting.

We've all been bitten by the allure of hot-rodding a cartridge for ballistics advantage. But then you inevitably see induced problems: loose primer pockets early on, having to chase lands due to a rapidly eroding throat, reliability in adverse conditions (this can be a big one that bites you when you don't necessarily expect it), reduced barrel life, etc.

At the end of the day, if you run the ballistics, it's usually never worth it for the very minimal ballistic gains you may see. The cost/reward just isn't there, as the downside can be huge while the upside is very minimal.

I would rather take a cartridge and run it comfortably below pressure, to avoid any self induced problems that lots see while hot-rodding a cartridge. I'll take the ~0.10 mil penalty in wind correction (the ballistics advantage is super minimal in most cases).

At the end of the day, you can't change the laws of physics and pressure will always be a challenge to manage, even if it isn't necessarily showing its head at this very moment.

Watching with interest to see how it works out for the OP and how he progresses with it, but it's a story often told with a very predictable ending.

 

[rugbydave]

I think you are misinterpreting my point Dave.

First off, you are making statements on the assumption that the 223 as I have it configured is not competitive with a 6BR or Dasher. I don't even want to go there again, even if the math says they are ballistically identical.

A guy in the top 10 percent (like yourself) would do well to debate the finest points of one cartridge and load over another.... for himself and others in that top 10 percent group.

As for the other 90 percent, a point here or there is all but meaningless. When they call a guy up for 50th place award or 51st place... does anyone really care? What about 80th place?

At that point in all honesty you are there for the fun and the experience.

Regardless of how I do next year, it wont matter what cartridge I shoot. I will shoot scores consistent with my "entire" skillset, and I just don't see a practical advantage is chasing a 6mm if the 223 is close enough.

We are all free to choose how we want to approach the game, I'm just being realistic. Besides that, I would rather come in last place on my own terms that come in first on someone else's.

All the power to you for running a .223 for PRS, I shoot a ton of ammo through my .223 trainer and honestly really enjoy the caliber. I guess I'm just skeptical that the performance that you're getting out of your .223 is something easily achievable by most (operating within safe pressures, etc). I also just don't really see the point of "hot-rodding" a .223 to that degree when you could basically run a light load in a .22 BR or 22 Creed. Barrel life would have to be very similar given the same bullet and same MV, especially with regards to the 22 BR. Anyways, I'm definitely curious to see how things work out for you over the life of the barrel, how long it lasts, etc.

 

[kthomas]

All the power to you for running a .223 for PRS, I shoot a ton of ammo through my .223 trainer and honestly really enjoy the caliber. I guess I'm just skeptical that the performance that you're getting out of your .223 is something easily achievable by most (operating within safe pressures, etc). I also just don't really see the point of "hot-rodding" a .223 to that degree when you could basically run a light load in a .22 BR or 22 Creed. Barrel life would have to be very similar given the same bullet and same MV, especially with regards to the 22 BR. Anyways, I'm definitely curious to see how things work out for you over the life of the barrel, how long it lasts, etc.

A .22 BR would be a much more sensible solution to driving the heavy projectiles. I may get a barrel spun up myself for that cartridge one day.

Great for the OP to get the performance he is, and hopefully he doesn't have any issues. But I hope that those reading this thread are tempering their expectations and not going to jump into a .223 thinking they can get the same results as the OP - you most likely will be setup for disappointment. This project may yet yield some unseen issues to the OP.

To those reading this thread with interest, If you want to shoot heavy .22 projectiles at a fairly quick pace, it would be best to get a more "fit for purpose" cartridge.

To the OP, good luck, and curious to see where this ends up for you.