Others have stated/insinuated that their limits are the ethics and to go beyond what they would do is not hunting. I am not by any means suggesting to take a poke in to the unknown at an animal, just look at the calibers I suggested, I am trying to make it easier for the guy.
Best hunting cartridge for 800 yards and in?
- Thread starter Resistol
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Southern Vancouver Island
And if it limps away long before you get to it & ends up a lost critter, (Most likely outcome)
then you not only waste game, but you'll show zero skill in stalking game.
I laugh at shmoes that take guess-shots at game beyond 150 yds. Sure, lots of game have been taken at long range, but I've never seen the point. For me, the best part of hunting is the stalk. I'm happiest inside of 100 yds. for game. I don't trophy hunt.
800 yds. is fine on a varmint or enemy, but not for freezer filler.
For all your derision, your higher standards seem limited to range time and a more powerful rifle / cartridge. No mention of strategy, technique and intuition. Forgive me if I don't take your criticisms seriously.
I said practice, a range does not simulate shooting in the field but this is common sense in practice for long range hunting just like strategy, technique, intuition and whatever else you think you need work on to hunt/hunt long range.
The larger calibers I mention take wind better so easier to learn on when making shots across wind that changes directions multiple times between the target.
Let's just say the gentleman is willing to put in the time and effort and thousands of rounds it takes to become proficient out to 800 mtrs.........
My choice of calibers would be the 7mm RUM loaded with the latest Nosler AB LR in 175 gn or the 300 RUM with the 210 gn Nosler AB LR. These cartridges are shootable from a regular weight rifle, using a 26-28" barrel, recoil is well within normal limits and they arrive with plenty of authority to dispatch any animal you would care to shoot at, at 800 mtrs. Both of mine in 700 Rems are extremely accurate, and easily capable of MOA right out to 800 mtrs. Plan on an extra barrel or two while attaining the proficiency required, but they make them every day and they are the least expensive factor on the way to 800 mtr proficiency.
Marshal @ Matrix makes a 190 gn VLD bullet for the 7mm, I would be highly inclined to test that one out in the 7 RUM or his 210 gn VLD in 30 cal for the 300 RUM.
I will give you a little advice on your way to becoming 800 mtr qualified.........do not skimp on optics.......you cannot hit what you cannot see. Your scope for this venture is going to cost you thousands of dollars, not a few hundred, and only a small handful are high enough quality to make the cut in my opinion.............
My choice of calibers would be the 7mm RUM loaded with the latest Nosler AB LR in 175 gn or the 300 RUM with the 210 gn Nosler AB LR. These cartridges are shootable from a regular weight rifle, using a 26-28" barrel, recoil is well within normal limits and they arrive with plenty of authority to dispatch any animal you would care to shoot at, at 800 mtrs. Both of mine in 700 Rems are extremely accurate, and easily capable of MOA right out to 800 mtrs. Plan on an extra barrel or two while attaining the proficiency required, but they make them every day and they are the least expensive factor on the way to 800 mtr proficiency.
Marshal @ Matrix makes a 190 gn VLD bullet for the 7mm, I would be highly inclined to test that one out in the 7 RUM or his 210 gn VLD in 30 cal for the 300 RUM.
I will give you a little advice on your way to becoming 800 mtr qualified.........do not skimp on optics.......you cannot hit what you cannot see. Your scope for this venture is going to cost you thousands of dollars, not a few hundred, and only a small handful are high enough quality to make the cut in my opinion.............
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
If you contemplate shooting game at ranges approaching a half mile, you first have to have the rifle and load that will shoot MOA at that range, and that you can place within a half minute of your point of aim on demand. Using a suitable rifle, if you were to fire 10, 20, or 100 rounds at a paper target at any range, 80% of those rounds would fall well within 1 MOA. That means you should be able to consistently attain 80% hits on a clay bird at 800 yards if you can shoot up to your rifle. Therein lies the difference between intrinsic and practical accuracy at long range. Now if you were to go out each morning for a month, regardless of weather conditions provided you could see the 800 yard target, and fired 1 round, what would the group look like at the end of the month? If its larger than 8" you aren't ready. If it extends more than 4" from your point of aim, you aren't ready. If you can't carry out this drill for a month, you don't have the opportunity to get ready. I think you can see where this is headed.
The correct cartridge is the one that has the capacity for putting a high BC bullet on target with a minimum of 2000 fps remaining velocity. Most folks will agree that it takes a minimum of 1700 fps for a game bullet to reliably expand, but at 1700 fps, the degree of expansion is also minimal, although the resulting penetration will be pretty good. Impact velocities of 2000 fps have provided excellent performance in the game fields since the introduction of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. Your cartridge should be able to put a heavy for caliber, high BC game bullet on target, with a remaining velocity of 2000 fps; a ballistics table will provide a pretty good idea of which cartridges are appropriate.
You can expect to spend upwards of $2K on a suitable scope for this sort of thing. Think in terms of S&B, Nightforce, and US Optics, supported with equally good mounts. Learning to correctly use a Horus style reticle has two major advantages over adjusting the scope for long range shooting. First its faster to adjust for windage and elevation by simply using an alternate aiming point within the reticle, and secondly, you don't need to be concerned about mechanical errors within the scope adjustments. A scope costing several thousand dollars should have reliable mechanical adjustments, yet we still hear of problems occurring, particularly as adjustments move out from the center of the adjustment range. If you're serious about long range shooting, and you have to choose between a $3K scope and a $5K rifle, buy the scope.
Next is the trick of acquiring appropriate ammunition. If you think you can simply follow the procedures outlined in your loading manual to attain suitable ammo, your first trip to the range will be an eye opener. Everything matters. Case capacities must be the same, neck hardness must be the same, necks must be concentric, powder charges must be the same, primer pockets and flash holes must be uniform and free of burrs, primers must be uniform, and bullet seating must uniform. Extreme velocity spread should approach single digit. If you can measure it, it matters, if you can't measure it, get better measuring tools.
Achieving these things is not impossible, but they do require dedication bordering on fanaticism, opportunity, and deep pockets to achieve.
The correct cartridge is the one that has the capacity for putting a high BC bullet on target with a minimum of 2000 fps remaining velocity. Most folks will agree that it takes a minimum of 1700 fps for a game bullet to reliably expand, but at 1700 fps, the degree of expansion is also minimal, although the resulting penetration will be pretty good. Impact velocities of 2000 fps have provided excellent performance in the game fields since the introduction of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. Your cartridge should be able to put a heavy for caliber, high BC game bullet on target, with a remaining velocity of 2000 fps; a ballistics table will provide a pretty good idea of which cartridges are appropriate.
You can expect to spend upwards of $2K on a suitable scope for this sort of thing. Think in terms of S&B, Nightforce, and US Optics, supported with equally good mounts. Learning to correctly use a Horus style reticle has two major advantages over adjusting the scope for long range shooting. First its faster to adjust for windage and elevation by simply using an alternate aiming point within the reticle, and secondly, you don't need to be concerned about mechanical errors within the scope adjustments. A scope costing several thousand dollars should have reliable mechanical adjustments, yet we still hear of problems occurring, particularly as adjustments move out from the center of the adjustment range. If you're serious about long range shooting, and you have to choose between a $3K scope and a $5K rifle, buy the scope.
Next is the trick of acquiring appropriate ammunition. If you think you can simply follow the procedures outlined in your loading manual to attain suitable ammo, your first trip to the range will be an eye opener. Everything matters. Case capacities must be the same, neck hardness must be the same, necks must be concentric, powder charges must be the same, primer pockets and flash holes must be uniform and free of burrs, primers must be uniform, and bullet seating must uniform. Extreme velocity spread should approach single digit. If you can measure it, it matters, if you can't measure it, get better measuring tools.
Achieving these things is not impossible, but they do require dedication bordering on fanaticism, opportunity, and deep pockets to achieve.
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If anyone has read the exploits of some of the US shooters who specialize in long range shooting you would realize some of them use cartridges most would consider under powered. These "specialists" seem to make a practice of taking a shooter of moderate skill out, loaning them a $5,000 to $10,000 rifle having a multi thousands of dollars worth of scope and about 5 or 6 trained helpers to calculate distance, wind etc. To me this suggests that short of someone who has had specialized sniper training this type of shooting should be beyond the expertise of about 99% of shooters.
To me this is where you have to differentiate between "shooting" and "hunting". While I acknowledge there are shooters out there who can consistently make these long shots I'm not one of them and for the run of the mill hunters I have watched at our shooting range I only know one or two who could humanely do this.
It's one thing to shoot at inanimate targets at these ranges but, to me anyway, not animals whether varmint or game.
Obviously there are widely divergent opinions about these and, like religion, one side will not change the other sides mind.
Jim
To me this is where you have to differentiate between "shooting" and "hunting". While I acknowledge there are shooters out there who can consistently make these long shots I'm not one of them and for the run of the mill hunters I have watched at our shooting range I only know one or two who could humanely do this.
It's one thing to shoot at inanimate targets at these ranges but, to me anyway, not animals whether varmint or game.
Obviously there are widely divergent opinions about these and, like religion, one side will not change the other sides mind.
Jim
tylerjwitty
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Ontario
80 percent of hunters would attempt the shot however 2 percent of hunters might be on cgn and those 2 percent have strong opinions .
I think humans are the only creature who seems to care about ethic kills ... Interesting topic to ponder / food for thought
I think humans are the only creature who seems to care about ethic kills ... Interesting topic to ponder / food for thought
Let me get this straight an 800 yard shot with no sighters and no wind flags .... now even the top shooters in the world couldn't do it on the first shot every time which is the one that counts in a hunting situation.
The only thing that will be achieved here is a wounded animal 90% of the time being left to die in agony or to heal over and be cripled.
I shoot f-class which is long range out to 900m or 990yds to be exact, I know some very good shooters that do very well at those ranges and they couldn't attempt a shot like that on the first shot.
Sometimes the first shot goes where it should but normally adjustments are required for conditions , so in a hunting situation on uneven or sloping ground at long ranges like 800 yds there are many variables for sight adjustments that a range finder can't do.
An example would be a sunny condition compared to a clowdy one ,depending on range it could be 1moa so right there on deer size game you would be right out of where you wnat to hit plus the grouping size of your rifle.
So if your rifle can hold 3/4moa and you have misjudged the conditions by 1 moa either way your shot could land about 14 inches from your point of aim , 1moa conditions are very mild conditions btw.
Maybe like someone posted on the first page of this thread a 50 bmg would give you some balistic advantage but they are to heavy to lug around lol.
Build yourself whatever rifle you like and go try it at 800 yards that will give you the answer you are looking for.
Good luck
The only thing that will be achieved here is a wounded animal 90% of the time being left to die in agony or to heal over and be cripled.
I shoot f-class which is long range out to 900m or 990yds to be exact, I know some very good shooters that do very well at those ranges and they couldn't attempt a shot like that on the first shot.
Sometimes the first shot goes where it should but normally adjustments are required for conditions , so in a hunting situation on uneven or sloping ground at long ranges like 800 yds there are many variables for sight adjustments that a range finder can't do.
An example would be a sunny condition compared to a clowdy one ,depending on range it could be 1moa so right there on deer size game you would be right out of where you wnat to hit plus the grouping size of your rifle.
So if your rifle can hold 3/4moa and you have misjudged the conditions by 1 moa either way your shot could land about 14 inches from your point of aim , 1moa conditions are very mild conditions btw.
Maybe like someone posted on the first page of this thread a 50 bmg would give you some balistic advantage but they are to heavy to lug around lol.
Build yourself whatever rifle you like and go try it at 800 yards that will give you the answer you are looking for.
Good luck
Sorry OP you don't have the skill to make those shots. Because you shot paper at that range doesn't mean you can hunt at that range. And if you really were that good you wouldn't ask such a dumb question and would know the answer. No offence. I shoot long range matches too and can hit v bulls at 1000 yards. But from 10 shots not all are in v bull. Which means in hunting you can assume those areal wounds or misses. Stop watching tv those guys will poison your mind. Not to mention actually ranging a animal while walking at 800 yards. Enjoy that. Like I said laying on a mound with known distances and mowed grass is a lot easier then in the bush at a animal.
Based on that post you don't know how to use a ballistics calculator. Which will always show the ft lbs of a load at various yardages. If you don't know how to use a ballistic calculator you never shot a coyote at 650 yards. Sorry man for being so harsh but these threads pop up all the time. As previously mentioned stopping watching tv. It's not good for you.
- Location
- calgary alberta
I agree. The majority of LR hunters put waaaaaay more time in with their rifles than almost all the "ethical" close range specialists do. Learning to make long shots takes dedication and alot more expensive gear than the average hunter is willing to invest in.
OP you might want to track down a set of books written by Nathan Foster. They have everything you want to know in them and are based on facts from field experience rather than emotion and conjecture from those who really have no clue what is possible with the right kit and in the hands of a skilled operator.
- Location
- calgary alberta
I agree, this saves me a lot of typing.
Long range kill shots. I once saw a moose shot twice at 425 yards, through the lungs (once in each side. The moose was walking and turned around after getting hit the first time).
It was shot with a 308 using 180gr Norma Pointed Soft points. The recovered bullets had zero mushrooming. They could have been reloaded and shot again.
That was 425 yards. Hitting an animal on the first shot at a lasered 800 yards on the first shot in an environment where the wind would be hard to read (no flags or waving trees) would be very difficult. And then hitting the animal with a bullet that had enough energy to perform would also be difficult.
In my opinion, anyone who would try the shot is probably being unethical.
It was shot with a 308 using 180gr Norma Pointed Soft points. The recovered bullets had zero mushrooming. They could have been reloaded and shot again.
That was 425 yards. Hitting an animal on the first shot at a lasered 800 yards on the first shot in an environment where the wind would be hard to read (no flags or waving trees) would be very difficult. And then hitting the animal with a bullet that had enough energy to perform would also be difficult.
In my opinion, anyone who would try the shot is probably being unethical.
sir_springer
Regular
- Location
- East Kootenays
Interesting thread, to say the least, on a controversial subject I've avoided...until now, I guess. Couple thoughts...
I've two son-in-laws whom have gotten into hunting because of me. So I became somewhat of a teacher/mentor to them of the sport.
One of the first things I told them was, and speaking from experience, you will never feel nearly as bad for passing up a shot you're not sure of as you will for having taken it and then wounding an animal...and far worse if you never find it. Told them taking the risky shot, particularly at the big one, is an easy decision; it's walking away from a poor situation that is hard.
One day one of my son-in-laws and my nephew hunting as a pair, and I apart from them chased after a bugling bull for about 1.5 kms. The bull broke timber across a road heading for another ridge, right in front a fellow and his teenage son in their truck. Short version is, exactly 15 shots over the next 4 or 5 minutes, the bull finally hit the dirt. I didn't go over to get a look at what we'd been chasing, but my two young partners did. The bull had been hit at least four times in very random parts of its anatomy. They didn't say anything, but when they came back to meet me, they were pretty torqued...not because someone else got the elk, but because of the gong show involved, and how it finally ended with nothing even remotely resembling a clean and humane kill. Safe to say, it was huge lesson neither will ever forget.
This is tough to admit, but as much as my dad taught me about how to handle and shoot a rifle, to him hunting was about putting meat in the freezer. Consequently, as a teenager I, too, was involved in a couple guns blazing, lead flying, take downs, of which after all these years gone by I do not have fond memories.
I taught my son-in-laws that hunting is a "sport", and thus there is a code of ethics and sportsmanship in same regard as there is to hockey, golf or anything else. The meat in the freezer, and trophy on the wall, aspect is a bonus of which we are only worthy if we play the game properly and with respect...including respect for the animals we hunt. "Where there's lead, there's hope," simply doesn't cut it.
FWIW, and IMHO.
I've two son-in-laws whom have gotten into hunting because of me. So I became somewhat of a teacher/mentor to them of the sport.
One of the first things I told them was, and speaking from experience, you will never feel nearly as bad for passing up a shot you're not sure of as you will for having taken it and then wounding an animal...and far worse if you never find it. Told them taking the risky shot, particularly at the big one, is an easy decision; it's walking away from a poor situation that is hard.
One day one of my son-in-laws and my nephew hunting as a pair, and I apart from them chased after a bugling bull for about 1.5 kms. The bull broke timber across a road heading for another ridge, right in front a fellow and his teenage son in their truck. Short version is, exactly 15 shots over the next 4 or 5 minutes, the bull finally hit the dirt. I didn't go over to get a look at what we'd been chasing, but my two young partners did. The bull had been hit at least four times in very random parts of its anatomy. They didn't say anything, but when they came back to meet me, they were pretty torqued...not because someone else got the elk, but because of the gong show involved, and how it finally ended with nothing even remotely resembling a clean and humane kill. Safe to say, it was huge lesson neither will ever forget.
This is tough to admit, but as much as my dad taught me about how to handle and shoot a rifle, to him hunting was about putting meat in the freezer. Consequently, as a teenager I, too, was involved in a couple guns blazing, lead flying, take downs, of which after all these years gone by I do not have fond memories.
I taught my son-in-laws that hunting is a "sport", and thus there is a code of ethics and sportsmanship in same regard as there is to hockey, golf or anything else. The meat in the freezer, and trophy on the wall, aspect is a bonus of which we are only worthy if we play the game properly and with respect...including respect for the animals we hunt. "Where there's lead, there's hope," simply doesn't cut it.
FWIW, and IMHO.
To put 1000 ft-lbs into an animal at 800 yards, it'll have to be 7mm rem mag, 300 win mag, something a bit less common or you'll have to use heavier bullets for caliber.
Some numbers I've run for common cartridges:
Never mind the stringent requirement to keep to less than 1 MOA at that distance, but you need to very accurately distance the target and calculate drop correctly. Between 700 yards and 800 yards, a bullet from a 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag will drop a further 4 feet. More on flat shooting cartridges: http://w ww.huntinggearguy.com/tips/flattest-shooting-hunting-calibers/
Some numbers I've run for common cartridges:
Never mind the stringent requirement to keep to less than 1 MOA at that distance, but you need to very accurately distance the target and calculate drop correctly. Between 700 yards and 800 yards, a bullet from a 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag will drop a further 4 feet. More on flat shooting cartridges: http://w ww.huntinggearguy.com/tips/flattest-shooting-hunting-calibers/
Energy is not a reliable measure of how lethal a particular cartridge is, other than ensuring there is enough for the bullet to expand and penetrate. It all comes down to accuracy and bullet selection. If the rifle and shooter are accurate and the bullet performs well at low impact velocities, you have an 800 yard rifle. With modern long-range optics, bullet drop at 800 yards is basically a non issue but the wind is a factor.
800 yards is too far for any cartridge. Even if you can hit a 9" pie plate, every time, at that distance, no cartridge has sufficient energy for a clean kill.
A 180 grain Remington Hypersonic .300 Mag, sighted in at 250, drops 33.4" with 1644 ft/lbs. on energy at 500. A 160 grain 7mm Mag drops 41.6" with 1371 ft/lbs. at 500. At 800, energy will be far less and the drop far more.
It's highly unlikely any guide would allow you to take a shot that far away anyway. B&C sheep or not. You see one or the whiteish blotch of something that far away, you stalk.
A 180 grain Remington Hypersonic .300 Mag, sighted in at 250, drops 33.4" with 1644 ft/lbs. on energy at 500. A 160 grain 7mm Mag drops 41.6" with 1371 ft/lbs. at 500. At 800, energy will be far less and the drop far more.
It's highly unlikely any guide would allow you to take a shot that far away anyway. B&C sheep or not. You see one or the whiteish blotch of something that far away, you stalk.
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