Best LPVO $3k- Vortex Razor Gen3 1-10 or Kahles K18i

Suchee

Suchee

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Location
in the woods
Budget is ~$3k, 40yr old bday gift! Help me spend my money.
I want the the best glass clarity, edge to edge, color , FOV etc. in a LPVO.
Lighter the better, the primary use is for backpack hunting with a manual action style AR in 6.5 grendel (Spectre/MRA) that will be 4lb ,10oz ish. Goal is a <6lb scoped rifle

Don't really "need" 10x, 8x is perfect for me, I will not be taking game past 300 but sure nice to have for my other hobby, LR plinking
Just cant bring myself to spend this much and not physically see them, but I guess thats pretty much impossible in the Vancouver area.
Ilya Koshkin(love this guy) from optics thoughts and snipers hide, loves the Blaser 1-7 (NM too heavy 23oz) and March 1-10. I'm not really interested in Nightforce, reticle donut/reticle is to big for hunting and too heavy



Cool vid
 
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I think the price point of these higher end LPVO is quickly spiralling out of range for many people.

This guys has like 10K on the table for review....unless he doesn't pay for them and received them for free to review.
 
greentips said:
I think the price point of these higher end LPVO is quickly spiralling out of range for many people.

This guys has like 10K on the table for review....unless he doesn't pay for them and received them for free to review.
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Was just going to comment something similar....

I’m planning on getting a 1-8x SE, or perhaps settling for a 1-6x SE from an IRL friend cgn’er...
Haha
 
Do you have a LPVO now that you prefer? That might help us with a suggestion

Maybe its just me but i cant bring myself to spend $3k on vortex lol
 
I've only had a Vortex strike eagle a few years back, couldnt wait to sell it, stupid fisheye. Now I really want to spoil myself with top end preferably Euro glass. I have seen my buddies swaro z5 3-? out hunting and it was so nice.
I've been to cabelas and have seen all the nightforce shv, nxs, cant really tell indoors
I've seen the viper 1-10 in the store today, and it was amazing! That mag range is nuts amazing, the reticle seemed amazing(the grey donut is translucent, not like nightforce), bright as aimpoint, but again indoors
I compared it to the Leupold vx6hd 1-6 mutligun, cant really tell glass dif there other than reticle, which is what you'd expect, very basic
 
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The Vortex Razor Gen 3 is really in a class of its own. The only drawback to this optic is the weight, but with that you get extreme durability, and comparatively speaking, the weight is the same as the Razor 1-6 Gen 2E. The Gen 3 is a first focal plane 1-10, with a very well designed MOA or Mil reticle. Which means you can be on any power and use all the reticle features. Even if you never shoot on 10, it’s nice to have if you wanna take a closer look at distance. The illumination is daylight bright.

The Nightforce ATACR 1-8 is the closest to the Razor Gen 3, but only 8x and a smaller FOV. Brightness is not as well executed either. Other specs are mostly the same. 34mm Tube, 10” long, FFP, 21oz, good reticle with wind holds and ranging.

The Kahles k18i is about 2oz lighter, with a much more simplistic reticle and its in the second focal plane, which means you’d need to be at max magnification to be accurate with your holds. It also has a 30mm tube, so more mount availability. FOV seems to be better than the other two. I would guess this optic, while excellent quality, is not as though as the other two.
 
Don't forget about the Primary Arms Platinum 1-8 FFP with the griffin mil reticle. It is excellent. I have compared it side by side with the Vortex 1-10 (moa). eyebox is not quite as tight on the PA 1-8 as the Vortex 1-10. I like the PA reticle better, but that is a personal preference. illuminatiton is just slightly better in the vortex, but I like the way the PA illuminates the whole christmas tree. Elevation turret is also not capped on the PA 1-8, vs capped on the vovrtex. Glass is slightly better on the vortex. But is the vortex $1150 better than the PA? that is for you to decide. Both the Vortex & PA platinum are made in Japan, probably same factory.

For comparison I have had a Kahles 1-6 since 2015. It has been absolutely perfect, it's glass quality is unreal. It has also been bomb proof through thousands of rounds on several NR rifles in 5.56 & .308win. If Kahles came out with a FFP 1-8 or 1-10 I'd be all over it, regardless of price.
 
Thank you for all the input, very much appreciated, so hard to spend this much money and not physically see them

One other thing, if this is for hunting and LR goofing around, why do I need a true 1x? Maybe a Swaro 1.7-10?
 
Suchee said:
One other thing, if this is for hunting and LR goofing around, why do I need a true 1x? Maybe a Swaro 1.7-10?
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You don’t really. That’s for you to decide.

On the comments above comparing the PA to the Vortex, there are a few things to consider. Illumination of only the centre instead of the entire reticle pattern is done on purpose, so that at 1x the site has a distinct aiming point. Illuminating the whole tree on a FFP can make the reticle busy and too large at 1x. On the subject of turrets, capped turrets are inherently more robust and can’t be bumped out of position. With a built out reticle, like these scopes have, there just isn’t any need to dial anymore.
 
Size of K16 vs Razor 3:
120101261_10158077292542499_6155977232588510588_n.jpg


K16 at 1x:
120119290_10158077292717499_3547195843693042266_n.jpg

Razor 3 at 1x:
119892999_10158077292572499_7229969040438690728_n.jpg

aimpoint m4:
120100585_10158077292702499_1965896600641946760_n.jpg

So it can be seen both the Kahles and Razor are not true 1x. Although every LPVO I have seen(Minox, Trijicon, S&B) are not 1x.

K16 max illumination in day light:
120156068_10158077300517499_1097736673893240741_n.jpg

Razor 3 max illumination in day light:
120117707_10158077300542499_1933297327183251788_n.jpg


I dont know how to take good pictures through scopes, so in my pictures, they all look bad. But in real life, I cannot see difference between K16 and Razor 3 glass.
at 10x zoom, I compared Razor 3 with Minox 3-15. The Minox seems to have more FoV at 10x than the Razor 3. The Minox's image also seems to be brighter and more HD, but it has a much bigger objective lens too. In terms of colors and edge to edge clarity, I could not see a difference.
 
angryeyebrows said:
You don’t really. That’s for you to decide.

On the comments above comparing the PA to the Vortex, there are a few things to consider. Illumination of only the centre instead of the entire reticle pattern is done on purpose, so that at 1x the site has a distinct aiming point. Illuminating the whole tree on a FFP can make the reticle busy and too large at 1x. On the subject of turrets, capped turrets are inherently more robust and can’t be bumped out of position. With a built out reticle, like these scopes have, there just isn’t any need to dial anymore.
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Yes I can imagine that illum reticle would be busy. Having turrets capped blended with using a proper reticle is what Ive been after for years. Cheap ones always do weird variations, Some, even Swaro, just cant blend everything together. Capped, true !x, good reticle(floating dot w tree), lightweight, big FOV, FFP. They are finally getting close though. March is ticking more boxes the more I research. Just no feedback and I cant get my eyes on one

Tiker, thanks!! That Viper 3 impressed me so much in store, that 34mm presents such a nice initial big "picture window", it even shows in your picks. Its 21oz, I might just suck up the 5oz over K16
 
angryeyebrows said:
On the comments above comparing the PA to the Vortex, there are a few things to consider. Illumination of only the centre instead of the entire reticle pattern is done on purpose, so that at 1x the site has a distinct aiming point. Illuminating the whole tree on a FFP can make the reticle busy and too large at 1x. On the subject of turrets, capped turrets are inherently more robust and can’t be bumped out of position. With a built out reticle, like these scopes have, there just isn’t any need to dial anymore.
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I'll argue that the illumination of the whole mil grid & the locking non-capped turrets on the PA has benefits that out weight the couple of (small) negative points you outlined.

While hunting I have encountered situations at dusk / dawn where a deer is standing against a dark background, like along a tree line at the edge of a clearcut. The illumination of the grid / reticle is immensely helpful in that situation, as it doesn't disapeear into the dark background. A properly designed FFP reticle, like the PA or Vortex have, the grid is barely even noticable on 1x. The grid on the PA scope isn't really useful or in the way until about 5x magnification. The PA for all intents & purpose at 1x looks like a Eotech with a circle (horseshoe) with a centre dot, and has a better defined infinetely precise aiming point with the chevron vs the Vortex centre dot. I like the PA griffin mil reticle better than the Vortex Mrad reticle, personal preferrence, and really just splitting hairs.

Yes capped turrets are probably more durable, but if at a know distance and you have time being able to dial your elevation is worth it to me. I have used this at service rifle matches where you are allowed optics at a max of 4x, and the grid at 4x is barely useable, and if you know your dope for your distance, you might as well dial it and then just use the centre aimpoint, much easier for the snap shooting stages. The other time I have used it was when I had the PA on my .22lr rifle and ran out of grid (14mils) while shooting 300m, so I dailed in a extra 10mils. I'll admit that running out of elevation in a 14mil grid is highly unlikely for most people, unless of course you have it on a accurate .22lr and shooting 250+ meters. The PA turrets are the locking type where you have to pull up on them a fair amount to be able to dial, so it would be near impossible to bump them off accidently.

Over the last 15months I have had the PA optic, it has been flawless for me. Had it on a total of 4 different rifles. It tracks with less than 1% error. Only thing I don't like about it is the weight, it's HEAVY at 26oz. It now sits on my 16.5" .308 bolt action ready for hunting season.

If the PA & vortex were the same price, I'd go with the vortex for the extra x2 magnification & weight. But with the PA being $1100 less, it makes choosing that much more difficult.
 
mileageman said:
I'll argue that the illumination of the whole mil grid & the locking non-capped turrets on the PA has benefits that out weight the couple of (small) negative points you outlined.
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Each end user is going to value different features.

You see from my perspective, I value capped turrets that can’t inadvertently be bumped when the rifle is handled roughly, or during transport. Used to have a Leupold with uncapped non-locking turrets on a DM rifle, and would constantly need to recheck zero. Nightforce with their zero stop helped, and even better was S&Bs self locking turrets, albeit slower to dial. I know the PA 1-8 platinum has locking turrets, so good on them. The other thing that turned me away from adjustable turrets is the size of them. I like the turret to be as flat as possible so that it’s not obscuring any of my field of view. On the Vortex, you get such a wide picture, the body of the optic almost disappears.

As for the reticle illum, I keep my LPVOs at 1x 90% of the time, with the illumination on, to use like a red dot. So the optic MUST have a daylight bright illum, that is a fine point. I’m also not a fan of circle dots at 1x. Hence, I don’t run any EOTechs. If you’re a fan, maybe the PA reticle is right for you.
 
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