best short action round
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I am pretty new but I have seen a 6.5x55mm and I thought is was a long action.
I googled it and came up with this until someone more knowledgeable comes along. Hope it helps:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1292173
I googled it and came up with this until someone more knowledgeable comes along. Hope it helps:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1292173
the 6.5 x 284 tends to run better on a long action in order to get match bullets seated out far enough.. there's good 6.5 choices out there for short actions though.. 260 Rem, 6.5 x 47 Lapua and the Grendal are three that are very popular.. the 6.5's pretty much dominate long range competition and are extremely popular in tactical rifle configuration in the big comps in the U.S. I shoot both a 260 and the 6.5 x 284 fairly hard... the 260 in a short action tends to make a better tactical comp rifle...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
What distances are you shooting?
I shoot the 6.5 Mystic which is my version of the 260AI. As a single shot, I feel it offers many benefits over the 260Rem and other 6.5s. BUT it is a wildcat so case forming is required.
I have recently played with a 260AI and it is very similar.
If you want a no brainer set up with similar performance, the 6.5 Swede is ideal.
The 6.5X284 really only makes sense if you plan on shooting at least 800yds out. Most only run at the same velocities as these smaller wildcats but burn up their barrels alot faster. If you can make the rig work beyond 3000fps, then the wear will be worth it.
The 6BR is really popular and many consider it THE cartridge on our side of 600yds. There have been several 1000yd BR records fall to this small case and its variants so it is no slouch way out there. But for F class, the big issue is being bounced around in the winds and the lower BC of the 6mm bullets will cost you points.
For mid ranges, the 6mm is are great option especially if recoil becomes an issue.
If you only compete from 800 to 1200yds, the 7mm is making alot of noise these days. However, the recoil will be tiring to some and that can also cost you points.
All will single feed in that action.
Let me know if I can help you with barrels, reloading supplies, etc.
Jerry
PS if you decide you want to shoot F T/R, then that is a whole different story.,
I shoot the 6.5 Mystic which is my version of the 260AI. As a single shot, I feel it offers many benefits over the 260Rem and other 6.5s. BUT it is a wildcat so case forming is required.
I have recently played with a 260AI and it is very similar.
If you want a no brainer set up with similar performance, the 6.5 Swede is ideal.
The 6.5X284 really only makes sense if you plan on shooting at least 800yds out. Most only run at the same velocities as these smaller wildcats but burn up their barrels alot faster. If you can make the rig work beyond 3000fps, then the wear will be worth it.
The 6BR is really popular and many consider it THE cartridge on our side of 600yds. There have been several 1000yd BR records fall to this small case and its variants so it is no slouch way out there. But for F class, the big issue is being bounced around in the winds and the lower BC of the 6mm bullets will cost you points.
For mid ranges, the 6mm is are great option especially if recoil becomes an issue.
If you only compete from 800 to 1200yds, the 7mm is making alot of noise these days. However, the recoil will be tiring to some and that can also cost you points.
All will single feed in that action.
Let me know if I can help you with barrels, reloading supplies, etc.
Jerry
PS if you decide you want to shoot F T/R, then that is a whole different story.,
My 6BR running at 2950fps near equals the ballistic performance of my 260 Remington with a higher BC bullet. I ran the numbers tonite and I am seeing less than .3 MOA difference at 900m between the 2.
I have 2 6BRs and a 260 Rem....If I had to choose only 1 to put in a match against all other rifles (at any range)....it would be my 6BR hands down.
It's a no brainer cartridge....load development will be done in hrs (not weeks or months) to find a load that will shoot...and shoot well.
I have 2 6BRs and a 260 Rem....If I had to choose only 1 to put in a match against all other rifles (at any range)....it would be my 6BR hands down.
It's a no brainer cartridge....load development will be done in hrs (not weeks or months) to find a load that will shoot...and shoot well.
6mmBR Norma.
The End.
The single most accurate cartridge going next to the 6 PPC (a short-range cartridge). I shoot mine to 1000 all the time. It will easily remain accurate to a mile. Top-of-the-line brass, outstanding barrel life (NOT so for the 6.5X284 or the improved 260 wildcats), low recoil, VERY easy to make work REALLY well, tons of excellent components and bullets, and without any question, it is THE cartridge to beat in F-Class.
The problem with shooting a 6BR is you will never ever be able to blame the gun.
The End.
The single most accurate cartridge going next to the 6 PPC (a short-range cartridge). I shoot mine to 1000 all the time. It will easily remain accurate to a mile. Top-of-the-line brass, outstanding barrel life (NOT so for the 6.5X284 or the improved 260 wildcats), low recoil, VERY easy to make work REALLY well, tons of excellent components and bullets, and without any question, it is THE cartridge to beat in F-Class.
The problem with shooting a 6BR is you will never ever be able to blame the gun.
- Location
- Virden, MB
6mmBR
/thread
/thread
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
And why some are going even larger to the 7mm and 180gr Bergers. It's always about balancing wind drift and recoil. Barrel wear is important but secondary during a match.
Cyan1de, I bet if you ran an improved 260 and pushed to 2950fps, the difference will be even greater.
If you are a good wind reader, as some F T/R & Palma shooters are, anything can be made to work. It boils down to how much room for error you have vs your skill level.
I am unaware of any F class match where the overall winner was an F T/R shooter. Shooting on the same target as F open shooters. Are these F T/R shooters not as good as F/O shooters?
Given the pedigree of many of the top US F T/R shooters, not too many shooters are going to beat them if they ever decide to shoot an Open rig.
In Bryan's new book, he gives a very nice illustration of this by comparing two 7mm bullets with a massive difference in wind drift at 1000yds of 2" with a full 10 mph wind (you would think that few would misread the wind by that much).
From his data, the average shooter will not see any benefit but the better shooters would. Was it much - NOPE but considering how close some match es can be, some shooters are building up rifles to take advantage of this.
All common chamberings used in F /Open can be built into rifles that are more accurate then the V ring (now 1/2 min at all distances).
The decision is wind drift vs recoil vs costs...
Jerry
mpwolf, is 4 mins of wind using a 308/223 or an F open rig? That is quite a lot of wind if using an F/O rig.
Jerry, that's an F/Tr rig. I grew up shooting .308 on Batouche, and never had more than 4 minutes of wind on my scope. Than I went to Ottawa last year, and suddenly needed 10 minutes! Bisley was even worse. I guess it comes down to what you are used to. I coached a combined F/TR- F/Open team in Ottawa this year, and was pretty astounded by what a 180 7mm berger would do in the hands of a good shooter. I've thought about what I would would build if I was going to make the switch to Open, and I think it would be a 6 BR for the shorts, and a 284 for the longs. It doesn't make sense to me to beat up the shootern and the barrel w/ the bigger rounds inside of 500, but from 600 on out, I think you need to run w/ the big dogs or go home (if you want to compete in the big matches at least.)
The performance of the Brit open team w/ their 7mm's vs. the US's 6.5-284's made the point that when the wind gets ugly, more bc's are your friend.
The performance of the Brit open team w/ their 7mm's vs. the US's 6.5-284's made the point that when the wind gets ugly, more bc's are your friend.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Disagree.
If you're going to compete in F/Open with an intention to win, you need gear that performs fully as well as the very best on the line. That means it has to be as accurate as the best out there, and have as little wind drift as the best out there. And the current state of the art in F/Open is pretty darn stunning.
Skill in wind reading *cannot* close an equipment inferiority gap, whether that gap is a lack of accuracy or an excess of wind drift, because if you are a good enough wind reader to win a national championsionship, so is the OTHER GUY on the line firing his 7mm/180. Superior equipment (accuracy, wind drift) is like the house's edge in gambling - over a long enough time (e.g. a Grand Agg), it inexorably grinds out its statistical advantage, and wins.
We had that happen this past weekend at our Atlantic Championships, but to be honest that's not a large enough sample to be meaningful. You need a pretty deep field of top-flight F/Open and F/TR shooters in order to get a meaningful result.
Whatever discipline you're going to compete in, you can't afford to cut corners; you need to get gear that is good enough to win. F/Open happens to be quite an extreme case w.r.t. the accuracy needed and the ballistic performance (wind drift) needed. The dollar cost of an 800-round vs. 1200-round vs. 2000-rounds barrel life are trivial, and do not deserve serious consideration; to do so is to get involved in seriously false economies. Other factors are much more important dollar-wise.
.308. Back in the old days Batouche (900m range at CFB Gagetown, NB) had a bit of fearsome reputation as the "Queen of Ranges", and was a very open, windswept range. I've heard stories of a 300m match being fired with 5 minutes of wind (!). But since then the vegetation in the area has really sprung up, and in the ten years that I've been shooting on it I don't think I've used more than 5 or perhaps 6 minutes of wind (.308W) at 900m. The conditions on the range can be frustratingly difficult to get an honest read on (unlike Connaught, which is a very "fair" and straightforward range), though they never seem get to be outright strong. This past week's match probably had the strongest and most difficult conditions I've shot on at Batouche (my wind bracket at 900m was 4 minutes wide).
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
rnbra-shooter, I totally agree with the ballistic advantage now offered to F open but I was trying to be diplomatic re the smaller cals/cases.
Of course, when you show up at an F1 match, you don't worry about saving your tires and you certainly don't bring a 'lower' horsepower engine.
But for most club matches especially when at shorter distances, the biggest baddest rig may not be the best to start with nor be affordable to play with. It really depends on how the rig will be used and the level of success demanded.
If economics and distance allow for a more moderate cartridge choice, this could allow the shooter more trigger time to build better skills. The best rig in the world driven by someone how can't tell the winds within 5mph is not going very far towards that podium.
When the goal is to win at the highest levels of comp, of course, no compromises can be taken and that now includes more recoil and costs... unfortunately.
Jerry
Of course, when you show up at an F1 match, you don't worry about saving your tires and you certainly don't bring a 'lower' horsepower engine.
But for most club matches especially when at shorter distances, the biggest baddest rig may not be the best to start with nor be affordable to play with. It really depends on how the rig will be used and the level of success demanded.
If economics and distance allow for a more moderate cartridge choice, this could allow the shooter more trigger time to build better skills. The best rig in the world driven by someone how can't tell the winds within 5mph is not going very far towards that podium.
When the goal is to win at the highest levels of comp, of course, no compromises can be taken and that now includes more recoil and costs... unfortunately.
Jerry
Jerry, you should come to a few more matches and see how well a good .308 can shoot. There have been plenty of times where TR shooters (using irons and slings) have scored as well or better than most F-Open shooters on the old ISSF targets. There have also been several instances where 308 has won the match. Ask Mark Anderson, Don Hall and Bill Leeper! I used to shoot F with 308, but I'm not a fan because I don't care for the recoil.
The fact remains that a truly precise and accurate rifle is essential, regardless of caliber or cartridge. That is for more important now with the new ICFRA target dimensions that have imposed on short range club level shooters. All other things being equal (and that is a tall order) the bullets with the highest BC have the lowest degree of wind error.
For me, the 6mmBR is all I want and need for domestic competition. I know it intimately and I can get one working with next to no load development. For hell-bent-for-leather long range competition, 300 WM and 240 Sierras. (and a chiropractor)
The fact remains that a truly precise and accurate rifle is essential, regardless of caliber or cartridge. That is for more important now with the new ICFRA target dimensions that have imposed on short range club level shooters. All other things being equal (and that is a tall order) the bullets with the highest BC have the lowest degree of wind error.
For me, the 6mmBR is all I want and need for domestic competition. I know it intimately and I can get one working with next to no load development. For hell-bent-for-leather long range competition, 300 WM and 240 Sierras. (and a chiropractor)
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Ian, I know all about Bill and his 308. Cool under pressure he was and didn't miss. I got the silver, he took home the gold. I did beat him on X count for what that's worth 
But that was on the larger target at 300m. As you say, the smaller target now used plus the challenges of shooting way out there, lean heavily towards the high BC bullet going as fast you can tolerate.
Like you, I have the 260AI/6.5 mystic case size dialed in and can set up a barrel very quickly. I see no really long matches in my near future so this setup will suit me very nicely.
If it can be made to shoot, a fast 22cal would be a superb option now that Berger has some really interesting 90gr Bullets. Recoil would be zip and the BC of these bullets rival many 6.5 bullets. It would be no issue driving these bullets beyond 3000fps.
Wonder how they will shoot going 3200fps?
G7 BC 0.262 22cal 90gr VLD - which is the same BC as the 6mm 108gr BT, 30cal 175gr BT Berger and very close to the 190gr MK. Nipping at the heals of the 6.5 139gr Scenar, 130 and 140gr Berger.
It will not be a 7mm 180gr monster but then it doesn't kick like a 180gr monster. Wonder when a 155gr VLD 6.5 bullet will appear?
These 90's make a 223 a real challenger with the super sized 308's in F T/R especially if you don't want all that recoil.
You might want to compare the BC of the 7mm 180gr Berger and 240gr MK. I would rather go with the 7mm Berger and go faster with way less recoil. Plus you don't have to deal with the often times finicky 240gr MK - used to shoot them and gave up. Never had the problem making the 180's shoot.
I truly wish I could be to more matches. Hopefully, next year....But at least I get to come out for the Farky and duel with the 6BR's. See you in a couple of weeks all being well.
Jerry
But that was on the larger target at 300m. As you say, the smaller target now used plus the challenges of shooting way out there, lean heavily towards the high BC bullet going as fast you can tolerate.
Like you, I have the 260AI/6.5 mystic case size dialed in and can set up a barrel very quickly. I see no really long matches in my near future so this setup will suit me very nicely.
If it can be made to shoot, a fast 22cal would be a superb option now that Berger has some really interesting 90gr Bullets. Recoil would be zip and the BC of these bullets rival many 6.5 bullets. It would be no issue driving these bullets beyond 3000fps.
Wonder how they will shoot going 3200fps?
G7 BC 0.262 22cal 90gr VLD - which is the same BC as the 6mm 108gr BT, 30cal 175gr BT Berger and very close to the 190gr MK. Nipping at the heals of the 6.5 139gr Scenar, 130 and 140gr Berger.
It will not be a 7mm 180gr monster but then it doesn't kick like a 180gr monster. Wonder when a 155gr VLD 6.5 bullet will appear?
These 90's make a 223 a real challenger with the super sized 308's in F T/R especially if you don't want all that recoil.
You might want to compare the BC of the 7mm 180gr Berger and 240gr MK. I would rather go with the 7mm Berger and go faster with way less recoil. Plus you don't have to deal with the often times finicky 240gr MK - used to shoot them and gave up. Never had the problem making the 180's shoot.
I truly wish I could be to more matches. Hopefully, next year....But at least I get to come out for the Farky and duel with the 6BR's. See you in a couple of weeks all being well.
Jerry
I have been talking to a brit that is going to give the 223 90's a go to see if they work as advertised out tp 1,000 if not it will be a short range rig and he will still be able to stay in F/TR then switch to the 308 for longer distances.
Open class 1st choice would be 7mm
Either the 284 shehane or the 7mm RSAUM both can reach 3,000 with the 180s and use less powder then the WSM.
Straight 284 is an excellent choice as well Charles Ballard won the F class open again in 2009 with a straight 284 at the Spirit of America match.
Ont0001 on this board won the DCRA’s this year with a 260ai. Against 7WSM and 6.5-284
If you are looking at a 6mm
Look at the 6mm dasher same case as the 6mmBr but blown out and improved. More velocity and similar accuracy.
If you are primarily going to be shooting 600 or less get the 6mm dasher. Gentle recoil excellent accuracy good overall performance less powder then the 7’s and 308.
Open class 1st choice would be 7mm
Either the 284 shehane or the 7mm RSAUM both can reach 3,000 with the 180s and use less powder then the WSM.
Straight 284 is an excellent choice as well Charles Ballard won the F class open again in 2009 with a straight 284 at the Spirit of America match.
Ont0001 on this board won the DCRA’s this year with a 260ai. Against 7WSM and 6.5-284
If you are looking at a 6mm
Look at the 6mm dasher same case as the 6mmBr but blown out and improved. More velocity and similar accuracy.
If you are primarily going to be shooting 600 or less get the 6mm dasher. Gentle recoil excellent accuracy good overall performance less powder then the 7’s and 308.
Ian, I know all about Bill and his 308. Cool under pressure he was and didn't miss. I got the silver, he took home the gold. I did beat him on X count for what that's worth
But that was on the larger target at 300m. As you say, the smaller target now used plus the challenges of shooting way out there, lean heavily towards the high BC bullet going as fast you can tolerate.
Like you, I have the 260AI/6.5 mystic case size dialed in and can set up a barrel very quickly. I see no really long matches in my near future so this setup will suit me very nicely.
If it can be made to shoot, a fast 22cal would be a superb option now that Berger has some really interesting 90gr Bullets. Recoil would be zip and the BC of these bullets rival many 6.5 bullets. It would be no issue driving these bullets beyond 3000fps.
Wonder how they will shoot going 3200fps?
G7 BC 0.262 22cal 90gr VLD - which is the same BC as the 6mm 108gr BT, 30cal 175gr BT Berger and very close to the 190gr MK. Nipping at the heals of the 6.5 139gr Scenar, 130 and 140gr Berger.
It will not be a 7mm 180gr monster but then it doesn't kick like a 180gr monster. Wonder when a 155gr VLD 6.5 bullet will appear?
These 90's make a 223 a real challenger with the super sized 308's in F T/R especially if you don't want all that recoil.
You might want to compare the BC of the 7mm 180gr Berger and 240gr MK. I would rather go with the 7mm Berger and go faster with way less recoil. Plus you don't have to deal with the often times finicky 240gr MK - used to shoot them and gave up. Never had the problem making the 180's shoot.
I truly wish I could be to more matches. Hopefully, next year....But at least I get to come out for the Farky and duel with the 6BR's. See you in a couple of weeks all being well.
Jerry
I assume you are talking about a .22BR or dasher? What kind of velocity could you expect to get out of a standard .223 case?
I would love to speak with someone that has actually gotten 90 grain Bergers to work well enough to compete in F-Class out of an unimproved 223 case. One really needs a 6.5" twist (not a standard twist) to make them work and there is lttle point in having that sort of BC if you can't get them up to the velocity that comparable (BC-wise) 6mm bullets are running. That bullet is comparable to the 6mm Berger 105, but a 223 doesn't get them going anwhere near fast enough without a bantha stick.
I have spoken with MANY shooters (and barrel buyers) that came to understand that the 90 Bergers are the stuff of 22BR's or 22-250's
I have spoken with MANY shooters (and barrel buyers) that came to understand that the 90 Bergers are the stuff of 22BR's or 22-250's
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
With respect to the 223, the target is to equal a super sized 308 at all distances they compete in F T/R. There is little point in trying to compare to an F Open rig.
The BC of the 90g Berger VLD is equal to the 185gr Berger. In a 308, that bullet would be going in the 2700fps range. I am sure some have gone faster but that would be pretty interesting loading.
A 223 should be able to push a 90gr bullet that fast too.
The issue is ability to get enough speed out of that little case with present day powders. Some are doing it with N550 but reported LR accuracy has not been that wonderful. So the question to me is pressure, twist, bullet, powder too finicky??????
If all goes well, the solution to this problem is a new powder manf plant away. News suggests that a new powder plant will be built in the US to make more Re17 and similar powders.
It would seem the US is a pretty big market for powders that can enhance a 5.56 NATO and heavy bullets. Who would have guessed?????
If they put the Re17 tech into a burn rate like a Re15, it might be what is needed to push the 223 and the 90's into the 2850fps range without walking too thin of a line. At least reach comparable speeds and not be too peaky.
That'll get alot of attention in the F T/R ranks.
Ian, I thought that SteveB is getting some very good results with his 22BR and the 90's???? Was using a Kreiger if my memory is correct.
There is a shooter in Ont that has posted a report about his ventures into 223 and 90's. Seems very promising.
Bud, if I were to build such a rig, it would be for the 22/250. The 22BR is a wonderful cartridge but not much bigger in case capacity then the 223 improved. Even the 22 Dasher is not going to get much over the 3000fps range.
NO, if I am building one of these to compete in F/O, it will have to go fast. Not sure if the bullet will agree with this but there is only one way to find out...
Jerry
The BC of the 90g Berger VLD is equal to the 185gr Berger. In a 308, that bullet would be going in the 2700fps range. I am sure some have gone faster but that would be pretty interesting loading.
A 223 should be able to push a 90gr bullet that fast too.
The issue is ability to get enough speed out of that little case with present day powders. Some are doing it with N550 but reported LR accuracy has not been that wonderful. So the question to me is pressure, twist, bullet, powder too finicky??????
If all goes well, the solution to this problem is a new powder manf plant away. News suggests that a new powder plant will be built in the US to make more Re17 and similar powders.
It would seem the US is a pretty big market for powders that can enhance a 5.56 NATO and heavy bullets. Who would have guessed?????
If they put the Re17 tech into a burn rate like a Re15, it might be what is needed to push the 223 and the 90's into the 2850fps range without walking too thin of a line. At least reach comparable speeds and not be too peaky.
That'll get alot of attention in the F T/R ranks.
Ian, I thought that SteveB is getting some very good results with his 22BR and the 90's???? Was using a Kreiger if my memory is correct.
There is a shooter in Ont that has posted a report about his ventures into 223 and 90's. Seems very promising.
Bud, if I were to build such a rig, it would be for the 22/250. The 22BR is a wonderful cartridge but not much bigger in case capacity then the 223 improved. Even the 22 Dasher is not going to get much over the 3000fps range.
NO, if I am building one of these to compete in F/O, it will have to go fast. Not sure if the bullet will agree with this but there is only one way to find out...
Jerry
