Best WW1/WW2 SMG ?

[Spencer]

There has been several threads on stens here of late, and I have even put one together myself. I like them because of the simplicity, a more basic weapon would be hard to envisage. It is also an easy weapon for almost anyone to put together precisely because it is so basic. The trouble with stens is that at the end of the day they really are a heap of crap when compared to almost everything else.

I like several WW1/WW2 smg's, but to me one that stands out way above the rest is what I would describe as a first generation smg, the Suomi KP-31. I would rate it the best due to the reasons listed below. ( not necessarily in the correct order)

1) Exellent accuracy.

2) Superb firepower, especially with its 71 rnd drum

3) Longer range than most smg's

4) Quick change barrel and barrel jacket.

5) Fully adjustable sights.

6) Rate of fire vacuum regulating valve.

7) Detatchable trigger group.

8) Takes a wide variety of magazines.

9 ) Last but by no means least, the outstanding workmanship and materials of the entire weapon, it was made to last and it just oozes quality. It is absolutely beautifull.

I can only think of one downside, and that is it's weight.

The Suomi KP-31 was a very expensive gun to produce, it was this that lead to it's demise.

 

[wheaty]

You have to go a long way to beat the Steyr Solothurn M-34. A totally machined SMG of tutonic pre war quality. My .02 worth

 

[jiminthecorner]

X10 on the Suomi!!! Had 2 at one time and they were the best. At the mechanical target range at CFB Borden I could consistantly knock over the 200 m targets. That and the fact my Mother was a Finn from Karelia and I lost two uncles in the Winter War in1939. Whole other story, JITC

 

[wheaty]

Borden tomorrow ??? #245

 

[Claven2]

1) The KP31 is not first-gen, it's second gen. 1st gen are the MP38, MP34, Thompson M1928, etc. The suomi, being made primarily from minimally machined tubing, is a second-gen SMG designed for semi-mass production.

2) Volume of fire is NOT the only critical factor in an SMG. Weight, balance, ease of production, reliability in all climates and dirt conditions, caliber, penetrating power, low cost, ease of maintenance, etc. are all just as valid measures.
3) The KP is essentially a slightly better made ppsh41, the ppsh41 having taken most of its features from the KP design. The ppsh41 is what I would consider 3rd gen, along with the Sten, grease gun, etc. These are guns where all fit and finish issues were secondary to reasonable reliability, VERY cheap and fast mass production, and relatively high volume of fire. They are next to disposable.

If I had to pick based on quality of manufacture, it would be HARD to beat the Steyr M34 or the MP38. From a manufacturing an beauty of design standpoint, these guns are the pinnacle of old-world SMG manufacturing. sadly though, the beauty and quality are their achilles heels as well. No modern army would dare equip its forces with guns so difficult to make and maintain in wartime conditions.

It's going to sound crazy, but my vote HAS to go to a 3-way tie between the PPSh41, the Sten MkII and the M3A1 grease gun. All were VERY capable of mass production, required minimal training, almost no maintenance, were ultra-reliable if properly made and delivered very adequate volumes of fire.

If we are allowed to include post-war guns, the 4th gen Uzi and Sterling would have to be strong contenders for much the same reasons

 

[Spencer]

1) The KP31 is not first-gen, it's second gen. 1st gen are the MP38, MP34, Thompson M1928, etc. The suomi, being made primarily from minimally machined tubing, is a second-gen SMG designed for semi-mass production.

Have you taken a good look at a Suomi ?

 

[wheaty]

Out of the three, the PPSh-41 is my favourite.....
You can keep about half a drum of empties in the air at one time (well, you COULD).

 

[Spencer]

X10 on the Suomi!!! Had 2 at one time and they were the best. At the mechanical target range at CFB Borden I could consistantly knock over the 200 m targets. That and the fact my Mother was a Finn from Karelia and I lost two uncles in the Winter War in1939. Whole other story, JITC

I recently read that in a 60's poll the Finns voted the Suomi smg near top of the best inventions of the 21st century. Seems they slaughtered countless Russians with them.

 

[Spencer]

I recently read that in a 60's poll the Finns voted the Suomi smg near top of the best inventions of the 21st century. Seems they slaughtered countless Russians with them.

20th century

 

[Calum]

My Vote also goes for the Suomi KP-31.

 

[sf]

Best would also mean eye appealing. This is one ugly looking smg.

 

[John Sukey]

The Owen or the Thompson

 

[Spencer]

Best would also mean eye appealing. This is one ugly looking smg.

Eye appealing never entered my head. I would guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As it happens I don't think it ugly at all, quite the opposite.

There were several versions made, but the majority had barrel jackets as in the pic I posted ( earlier version ) or had a ventilated muzzle break. This changes the look quite a bit. They can be fitted with either in seconds. I will take some pics later on.

 

[Spencer]

X10 on the Suomi!!! Had 2 at one time and they were the best. At the mechanical target range at CFB Borden I could consistantly knock over the 200 m targets. That and the fact my Mother was a Finn from Karelia and I lost two uncles in the Winter War in1939. Whole other story, JITC

I bet you wish you still had them. What happened to them ?

 

[Nyles]

My vote would probably go for the Suomi as well, but what about the Beretta 38A?

In fairness, the only one I've acually shot was the M1 Thompson.

 

[Spencer]

Jacket differences

Locking lugs

My next project will be building one of these and getting a fart number for it. I think I am going to have to enlist the help of a skilled machinist to get the new reciever done properly. It is far more than just a tube and way above my skill level at present. Other than the reciever I think it will be a simple job, including sorting the trigger mechanism so that it's semi only.

 

[Unsub]

I love the PPSH not only for the gun itself but it's cartridge which is excellent and for the way the Russians used it as a soldiers primary weapon and not just for NCO's or spec ops troops. It was the perfect weapon for the kind of close quarters fighting on the eastern front.

I always thought a modern subgun in 10mm would be excellent. The biggest most powerful pistol cartridge (within reason) that could take advantage of the extra barrel length and the 2 handed grip for a realistic 300 metre range.

What made me think of this was the .357 lever action rifles.


My thought on Finn weapons were they were usually like Soviet weapons that were not made by drunken vodka addicted peasants?

 

[Spencer]

The PPSH 41 is a much simplified version of the KP-31. They copied the drum as well.

 

[contact148]

PPSH part of my family fought on the east front and used captured ppsh's to give the russians thier bullets back

My grandfather said the ppsh worked and thats all that really mattered MUCH better then his issiued german gun

 

[jiminthecorner]

Ah, well I still had the Suomi when my dear old mother was still alive. Had a 20rd "police" mag and she(MY Mother) blew a RACOON off the deck of our cottage years ago. It was sold before all the Grand fathering bullsh!t took place. My uncle Heikki, also tracked a snow leopard far into Riussia after it killed his "Bear dog" Damn tough guys them Finns. Again another story!! JITC