Beware of a "Gunsmith" you don't know

redshooter

redshooter

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I thought I would throw out this warning even though I should have know better. I took my barreled action to a local gunsmith that a few people recomended in my area. I had to as I just couldn't get my Savage barrel nut loose with my small vice and I don't have a heat gun to loosen up my lock nut. I call this guy (who will remain nameless, if you live near Haliburton county pm me and I'll tell you who) and explain my situation and that it may need a little heat and that I'm not going to use my torch as I don't want to mess up the temper. He states he doesn't like to put heat to gun parts wich was what I wanted to hear. I call him 5 days later and he informs me he has "sweated out" the loctite but he has no barrel wrench (now I'm a bit nervous). I zoom over with mine and see he's put a fair bit of heat to the nut and the action is discoulored. Well lets see what he's done so when he puts it in the vice with out blocks (???) I say let's heat that nut a little and see if we can spin it. Much to my suprise he's getting it to cherry in spots and I'm thinking that's that for that action but I'm no smith sooo. I'm polite (he does seem like a really nice guy), get out of there, and pm Mystic as soon as I get home. Jerry confirms my suspision that it may be screwed. Here's one more vote for Savage. I call the head office and one of their smiths says there's a good chance it's pooched and it should be inspected before it's used again. Another call to Savage Canada and 10 min later a message that it's no prob get it to us and we'll take a look at it. A letter from the manuf should make getting compensation easier.
 
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Its unfortunate when things like this happen. There are guys out there who seem willing to take on work that is beyond their expertise. While they may not necessarily be intentionally fraudulent, they bite off more than they can chew, which leads to problems for both them and their customer's. The gunsmiths that are busy and can't promise a fast turn around are busy for a reason. Buyer beware!
 
I've never liked these threads where someone has a bad experience and then proceeds to do everything possible to "warn" others in the hope that the perp will lose business. There are always at least two sides to a story, and we have one. Any thought that it's a general warning and that the gunsmith's identity is hidden is of course nonsense as that's all most readers care about - and the little "Sherlocks" who would never patronize the guy will surely out him. Given that he's been in business a while and been recommended, he's certainly not Bubba's stupid cousin, but neither is he perfect - obviously.

He seems to have screwed up, and the real test is how he responds.

Just saying....
 
Unlicensed gunsmiths

That's really unfortunate redshooter. The situation here in Canada is you don't need to be certified to call yourself a "Gunsmith" If only there was some sort of national accreditation, we wouldn't be posting unfortunate threads as yours. Hope it all works out for you.
 
Bit late now but if you have the barrel wrench but no barrel vice or action wrench ...

Put the barrel wrench in your bench vise horizontal with the hole for the barrel pointing up. Slide the barrel at 90 degrees to the floor, through the barrel wrench. it should be supported by the wrench with the action upper most. You now have both hands free. Use a "large" adjustable wrench on the lug nut to turn the action. Protect the action with copper strip or similar.

I have done 2 like this and it was the easiest way for me to free the barrel.

Owning a good barrel vice is probably best.
 
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Andy said:
I've never liked these threads where someone has a bad experience and then proceeds to do everything possible to "warn" others in the hope that the perp will lose business. There are always at least two sides to a story, and we have one. Any thought that it's a general warning and that the gunsmith's identity is hidden is of course nonsense as that's all most readers care about - and the little "Sherlocks" who would never patronize the guy will surely out him. Given that he's been in business a while and been recommended, he's certainly not Bubba's stupid cousin, but neither is he perfect - obviously.

He seems to have screwed up, and the real test is how he responds.

Just saying....
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Sorry if I wasn't clear as I'd just woke up. I don't want the guy to loose business. I'm sure he goes great work within his limits. He had some really nice hardwood handles for fishing rods and probably does great work with the wood etc. The fault is as much mine as his. I failed to ask one important question, "have you done this before?" The lesson here is make sure your "smith" isn't over his head. Most shooters up here are hunters and I'm guessing it's mostly repairs from the old lever falling out of the tree stand. I really liked the guy. I still plan on bringing im a peice of exotic hardwood I said he could have. I'm not even angry, just disapointed that he took on a job that seems to be beyond his expertise. I hope the people don't make trouble for him. I just want to remind people who are tackling a project like mine to make sure your not asking to much of some guy who may wow you with a custom stock but may not turn down work he should (as the first guy did).
 
I don't know this gunsmith, although I now live in this area.
It can be more important for a 'smith to know what he can't - or shouldn't - do, rather than what he is able to do well.
I've been smithing for a long time, over 40 years, including running a business for well over 20, and there are jobs I just won't consider.

Here is another Savage barrel nut trick similar to warrenb's suggestion: Cut a couple of pieces of brazing rod, put them in opposite grooves in the barrel nut (use masking tape to hold them in place) and then apply the large wrench. The wrench will lock on the rods. Of course, some Savages don't have grooved nuts.
 
Savage has never used lok tite or any other type of thread retaining compound to apply barrels or nuts. If the action received enough heat to alter its hardness then the heat treating is faulty and therefore the action is considered unsafe. If you saw the nut red then it needs to be replaced. Remember, an action is designed to withstand certain cartridge failures and if the heat treating is faulty, the action will not withstand its designed pressure limit.

Do you have a pic?
 
Dave Myles at Savage Canada advised me to bring it in and they would inspect it. He said it might take a week or so but It makes me feel good that the manufacturer will be inspecting it. I love Savage cust service, I hope it never changes.
 
Well something was stuck the easy way to remove it is heat.. changeing the heat treat is possible but sometimes its the only way to get it out..
 
mmm...chicken said:
That's really unfortunate redshooter. The situation here in Canada is you don't need to be certified to call yourself a "Gunsmith" If only there was some sort of national accreditation, we wouldn't be posting unfortunate threads as yours. Hope it all works out for you.
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National accredation even a bunch of documents on the wall does NOT mean crap.
There are hacks and people who do not know their limits in EVERY walk of life from mechanics, plumbers, and welders to doctors and lawyers.
Someone who is good at something does not necessarily require formal education and government issued paperwork to be any good.

Over the years I have had a few different busineses and can tell you for a fact many "Certified Journeymen" never came close to the quality of work some self educated farm boys could perform. Same in the gun business or any business for that matter. Many very successful businesses have been started and run by guys with a knack and some sense.
Don't believe for an instant that just because someone flaunts a degree or some government issue papaerwork thay are good for anything.

Many people have drivers licenses, but really should never be allowed on the road.
 
Rick is bang on. One of my big frustrations is that folks will invest a huge amount of time and money into buying the best barrel on the market, and they will take it to a hack to have the work done.

Mick McPhee (barrel maker and Smith) feels so strongly about this very point that he won't sell his barrels unless he does the install to make sure it is done right. Everyone want' to blame the barrel, not their work.

I am not a gunsmith. Guys like Mick have forgotten more in the last couple of days than I will ever know about the art of precision gun building and barrel installations.

If you want it done right, you do your homework and take your time.
 
Savage gave me a beautiful wrench to fit the barrel nut and an action vice. I usually had to use an old barrel in the end of the wrench to generate enough torque to unsceew the nuts.

The next time I went to the factory I made a point of meeting the gorialla that installed the barrels.

Juanita might have weighed 100 pounds. She did not use Loctite.

The end of the nut is slightly rough and engages the action face. It has to be reversed to get it to release. Once you get the nut off, lay it on a piece of fine sandpaper and polish the face so it does not "bite" the action.

I have never failed to get one off. An overnight does of penetrating oil seems to help. If I did fail, I think a solution would be to split the nut with a dremmel.
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
National accredation even a bunch of documents on the wall does NOT mean crap.
There are hacks and people who do not know their limits in EVERY walk of life from mechanics, plumbers, and welders to doctors and lawyers.
Someone who is good at something does not necessarily require formal education and government issued paperwork to be any good.

Over the years I have had a few different busineses and can tell you for a fact many "Certified Journeymen" never came close to the quality of work some self educated farm boys could perform. Same in the gun business or any business for that matter. Many very successful businesses have been started and run by guys with a knack and some sense.
Don't believe for an instant that just because someone flaunts a degree or some government issue papaerwork thay are good for anything.

Many people have drivers licenses, but really should never be allowed on the road.
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My thoughts exactly as I was reading through this thread!!
Well said ATR...WELLLLLL SAID!!!! ;) ;)
 
Here's an update. A Savage Canada Gunsmith said that at best the nut is pooched. He strongly suspects that the temper of the action is ruined. I also put the bolt in for the first time since it was heated and it was sticking. Upon closer inspection it's clear he tried to turn the action by sticking something through it and put a nice dent in it causing the bolt to stick a little when closing it. I'm going to contact him today and insist he at least buy me a new action or purchase a new rifle and he can have the old for parts.
 
So just what does a person need to be able to open shop as a Gunsmith in Canada?
A work bench, some tools and a few magazines? One of those courses we see advertised on a match card ?
Is there any trade school that has a Gunsmith program?
A craft with such a possible danger from poor workmanship should be a recognised trade with interprovincial status.
Some formal teaching is not a bad thing.
If a so called gunsmith can not remove a barrel you have to wonder how many others are out there with similar skils. Do you want them to be doing critical work on a gun that you shoot? Re chamber an old war rifle to a new wildcat magnum for you?
Trial and error and gun powder is not a good combination.
We often hear " Take it to a Gunsmith to be sure it is safe".
How do we know the Gunsmith is safe? Formal training is needed.
 
redshooter said:
Here's an update. A Savage Canada Gunsmith said that at best the nut is pooched. He strongly suspects that the temper of the action is ruined. I also put the bolt in for the first time since it was heated and it was sticking. Upon closer inspection it's clear he tried to turn the action by sticking something through it and put a nice dent in it causing the bolt to stick a little when closing it. I'm going to contact him today and insist he at least buy me a new action or purchase a new rifle and he can have the old for parts.
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Know this, if the heat treating is gone at the front of the action it will not resist splitting open as it normally would in certain types of case failures. Barrels and chambers are not hardened very much and if the nut was red the chamber may have gotten altered as well, highly unlikely but possible depending on how much heat it absorbed. The recoil lug should have absorbed heat but this shouldn't ruin it as it isn't a highly stressed part. Savage recoil lugs are junk from factory and should be replaced anyway. I doubt the action got enough heat to ruin it but I didn't see it. Now that it is bent/dented/damaged I would be asking for a new one. I would not surrender the action, barrel or nut, I would destroy the nut and chamber end of the barrel. If he is willing to buy you a new action, send the old one to Savage and let them decide what to do with it. They will not allow that action to leave if it is pooched and they should be able to retreat it if they want to, this way you will never have to worry about it. I seriously doubt they will #### around with a dented or bent action.
 
Not even that. Hang up a sign, presto, you're a gunsmith. Oh sure, there are business licenses involved, but that is just tax collecting really, has nothing to do with 'smithing. Personally, I don't want the government involved in this in any way, regardless of the dangers presented. They screw up everything they touch, this wouldn't be any different. - dan
 
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