beware of WinClean for IPSC! PF issues with 115gr...

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omen

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Hi,

Just FYI, I've been using the 115gr WinClean for well over a year, but recently the stuff I'm buying has been dropping in speed... In Guelph provincials I was at 128PF, in Area 7 this past weekend I was at 123, until the very last, 7th shot, which came in at 1250fps and pushed me to 125.2... that's waaaay too close for comfort for me, won't be buying that ammo anymore... (this is out of an SP01). I remember it usually coming in in high 130s, before - just like the FMJ 115gr is still... just the winclean that's screwing up...

if you bought any winclean in the past few months and haven't run it through a chrono, you might want to do that, before any large matches...
 
omen said:
Hi,

Just FYI, I've been using the 115gr WinClean for well over a year, but recently the stuff I'm buying has been dropping in speed... In Guelph provincials I was at 128PF, in Area 7 this past weekend I was at 123, until the very last, 7th shot, which came in at 1250fps and pushed me to 125.2... that's waaaay too close for comfort for me, won't be buying that ammo anymore... (this is out of an SP01). I remember it usually coming in in high 130s, before - just like the FMJ 115gr is still... just the winclean that's screwing up...

if you bought any winclean in the past few months and haven't run it through a chrono, you might want to do that, before any large matches...
Click to expand...

I noticed the crono at the Aware was running a little slow. My ammo has been running 175-177 pf and it came in at 172 there. We have a few people end up shooting minor at that match.
 
Might also have a lot to do with weather - temperature, pressure, ambient humidity and a bunch of other factors. Don't expect a 125 pf load in, say, Denver on a hot day to shoot 125 somewhere like Vancouver on a cool rainy day
 
Spray some Pam on a factory round and tighten your chamber up with JB Weld. I read it on the intranet so it has to work.
 
Mine was about 3pf lower. It was Combat masters 147gr, which I Chrono at around 134pf. At Aware it was 130.5pf, partially due to one round which was abnormally low.
 
omen said:
...snip... In Guelph provincials I was at 128PF, in Area 7 this past weekend I was at 123, until the very last, 7th shot, which came in at 1250fps and pushed me to 125.2...
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I wouldn't worry about them.

The area 7 guys in the chrono were nice, but didn't have a clue what they were up to. First, the scale - those digital scales are very sensitive. It needs to be calibrated often, protected from wind and be on a very solid perch. It was open to the elements, move around often and set up on a card table. Since everyone in my squad a consistent low value (with some very expensive bullets - MG, HAP, etc.) - I doubt it was calibrated.

Then there was the chrono. I don't know how many they did before us, but when we got there, Chris Tilley and Brandon Strayer noticed that they were only calculating power factor on the last shot, (shot 3, then pressed pf , entered bullet weight and then pf again - wha-la - pf of 3rd shot - not the average) Chris showed them how to work the chronos (against argument they knew what they were doing - which they didn't) and then they started doing averages properly, but if they didn't understand that, I assume there were other issues too. On the bright side, they were using a rest and they didn't fire sighter rounds.
 
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Freedom Ventures said:
On the bright side, they were using a rest and they didn't fire sighter rounds.


Now.. Now Sean be nice...my guys did know how to calculate PF and they did know how to use the rest and shoot straight...but when competitors gun shoots 6 to 8" off ask yourself a question, How many chronos would you want to damage.
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dtjos said:
[...but when competitors gun shoots 6 to 8" off ask yourself a question, How many chronos would you want to damage.
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That's an unfortuntate circumstance that we have to live with. The chrono team has to set up with a rest and target to ensure they are shooting in the exact same hole and pick a sweet spot that will allow for various sight ins that competitors have chosen.

Ever see a sighter round at the WS? USPSA Nats? Pan Americans? Can Nats? It's not any rule book.

A sighter round at the chrono is a quick way to get your chrono thrown out if someone was unhappy with thier results there.
Be thankful those that would try it on, chrono'ed thier PF.
 
hi guys,

I hear you, BUT even if the chrono at A7 was a little lower than usual, it still doesn't explain why the FMJ was shooting 138, like it was supposed to, and the BEB was 128, when 9 months earlier, it was averaging about 138, like the FMJ... This was out of a pretty new gun... This might also explain why earlier this year I started getting stovepipes when using the default factory recoil spring (the really heavy one) - last year the ammo was hot, and it cycled just fine, this year it started dropping, sometimes to the point where it'd stovepipe...

Anyhow, who knows what it might be, just wanted to bring this to the attention of anyone who might be shooting that ammo - just to be on the safe side, run it through some chrono out of your gun before any level 3 matches... ;)

ohhh, they looked at the individual speeds for each of my shots, and avg them manually on a calculator, taking the top 3 each time... so the procedure seemed fine...
 
ok, ok, ok, it's over, it's done... ;) If you guys want a proper forum for that discussion, take it to Global Villiage and let Vince and his bretheren chime in :D
 
I can afford 1 extra round at big match, held by friends to ensure their chrono does not get busted even if it is not in the rule book.
 
dtjos said:
For you info I did see sighter at US Nationals in Bend..and as I have stated chrono was borrowed it got shot once and I did what had to be done...
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Good point - I forgot - that's an USPSA match.
I'm not looking for justification for it, Josko, you did what you had to as an MD and it worked out well overall anyway. Just something to be aware of for next time.
 
My point was that I know it is not in the rule book but if the match asked for a sighting round as a Courtesy on personal level I would not object. It seems smarter to me donate a .07$ Rnd then ruin a $250 chrono. Enforceable "NO". Also I have worked a chrono or two some people are not as active or caring about their performance as the rest of us and at a match this size may have only gone because it is short drive or with buddies and may be 6 inches off and having the time of there life. You won't see that a huge match out of country. Rules are enforceable. I agree that is what makes IPSC, IPSC. Courtesy make the game little nicer for everyone.

I don’t believe there is anything specific about the ON Deck shooter being only one allowed on the stage but it is cover under following directives of range staff.
 
Just for future reference, if the chrono porcedure did come into question, could the sighter round have been justified by saying it was also to ensure that the bore wasn't lubed up to get a higher velocity on the first shot?
 
On the subject of Winclean, I've been trying to get some info out of Olin on it.

They sell it at TSE and I bought 1,000 rounds to try it out. I haven't chronoed it but it's definitely warm enough to make minor PF, I wouldn't be surprised at a PF of 138.

What I'm trying to discover is what the powder is that they use in this stuff.

The reason why is that there is no powder residue left in the cases at all, and you get about a third as much left in the gun as compared with say, Winchester USA.

The problem is that it is a complete ##### to get it out of the gun. I'm pretty sure the powder burns hotter, which is why there is less residue but what there is, is very hard to remove.

All the residue in the barrel is near the muzzle, which fits into that theory as well as obviously it gets cooler the further down the barrel it is. But damn is it hard to get that bit of carbon out of the barrel at the muzzle end.

I've got to be honest and say I'm not buying anymore. I don't think it's unsafe or anything like that, I doubt it gets that hot inside the gun but it's not as wonderful a concept as it sounds.
 
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