Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
No disagreement there, but when it comes to the kids safety Ill take every margin of safety I can get.
Bird Shot in your Home Defense Shotgun
- Thread starter Big Bad
- Start date
No disagreement there, but when it comes to the kids safety Ill take every margin of safety I can get.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Haven't had a chance yet to get out and test wax slugs... haven't had a chance to try my first shotgun for that matter, thanks to the continued lockdown around here. But it'll happen. Meantime I've made half a dozen of the things using 2-3/4" Remington 'Gun Club' target #7.5 shells and have made a few discoveries which may be of use:
- Drilling was messy and almost inevitably tossed a few BBs out, mixed in some plastic, making for inconsistent weight. Twist bit, spade bit with shortened guide tip (something I'd modified to use on Delrin plastic), didn't make much difference, just messy. I didn't bother buying the recommended 16mm diamond core drill as it had become obvious that any drill, no matter how sharp, was just going to move the soft shell plastic too much resulting in a messy finished product.
- Cutting out the plastic just inside the folded lip was very easy using a small #8 sweep 10mm out-cannel gouge. I have lots of carving tools handy, so it occurred to me that a gouge might easily slip through the plastic, avoiding any lost BB and making zero plastic mess - worked perfectly with a light push and wiggle, no need for any sort of jig, just hold them in one hand and poke the gouge in around the perimeter with the other. The feeling of the gouge blade slipping through plastic and hitting a couple of BBs is clear enough, then withdraw it and make another cut starting partially into the first cut, then carry on for 6 or 7 total cuts until the newly formed 'lid' just lifts out, freeing the contents but preserving the fold to restrain the cup intact.
- Emptying the BBs into a collective container for mixing with molten wax made no sense in terms of reliably restoring full projectile weight in each shell, so I opted for a single empty/mix with wax/refill approach using small blobs of wax melted with a little propane torch in the same small folded pellet tin as the lead BBs.
- Beeswax is very sticky and less subject to fracturing in cooling than paraffin, and I had a bunch on hand, so went with beeswax. Smells nice too. Seems to me beeswax might have a better chance of staying in one piece under the shock of firing compared to brittle paraffin, more likely to stay as a slug until initial contact with some obstacle, whereupon it would of course deform, convert loss of momentum into heat energy and melt, allowing the waxy BBs to fling wherever they do and dump energy quickly.
- Once melted until I see just a wisp of smoke and all the wax (about a teaspoon worth when solid) is melted among the lead, I pour from the folded pellet tin through the spout formed at one end directly into the open shell, coaxing the lead to move with a small stick to keep the level of molten, clear wax just a bit higher than the level of lead as it fills. Biggest difficulty I've found with the wax is having too much mixed in - you really want just enough to wet the lead plus a bit of a puddle around it. Too much wax tends to pour too soon, starting to congeal at the base on contact with the cool plastic cup, preventing enough lead from getting inside before the thing is full. There's one in my picture showing this - I managed to get the whole collection back in but they're sitting a bit high, level with the plastic rim. Much easier to top up with a bit of extra wax later than to try and prevent it flowing in at the same time as the shot.
- I don't quite fill them, instead leaving about 1mm from the top, then as it begins to cloud over to some depth I use a matched dowel to press gently, making sure there are no air bubbles. I then top it off to level with another few drops of melted beeswax and let fully cool. About half of them develop a tiny crack near the middle, so I'll heat that briefly with the little torch and dribble another drop or two on to seal it again. The finished wax can be from level to slightly lower than the plastic rim. They feed into the barrel exactly as easily as normal shells when pumping (Remington 870 Tac-14) so there's no issue with face shape or any distortion of the nose with hot wax. I think the cup preserves the size well enough. Without it, the shell itself seems rather fragile and prone to distortion.
The only problems I can see with this would be that the slightly sticky nature of beeswax might very slightly increase resistance of the wad from leaving the shell. But as there's not likely much leakage outside the petals of the cup this shouldn't be significant - still, not something I'd want to push by using on a full power load, perhaps better left to target loads. There's probably going to be a significant drop in muzzle velocity. These shells are rated at 1,200fps for a normal length shotgun barrel, so I'd guess maybe they lose 50fps through my 12.5" barrel. The added weight of the wax likely takes another 50fps off the muzzle velocity but if it stays intact in flight would preserve more momentum further out as it would behave more like a standard 1oz non-rifled slug. So I'll have to test for close range cohesion, longer range cohesion, then dispersion rates after striking a barrier of some sort, and finally penetration/destruction in a 'meat target' of some sort. Accuracy is a bit of a secondary consideration through a smooth bore with something as inherently sub-optimal as a wax slug, but I'll have to see if I can reasonably hold to POA to at least 20 yards. Should be fun!
- Drilling was messy and almost inevitably tossed a few BBs out, mixed in some plastic, making for inconsistent weight. Twist bit, spade bit with shortened guide tip (something I'd modified to use on Delrin plastic), didn't make much difference, just messy. I didn't bother buying the recommended 16mm diamond core drill as it had become obvious that any drill, no matter how sharp, was just going to move the soft shell plastic too much resulting in a messy finished product.
- Cutting out the plastic just inside the folded lip was very easy using a small #8 sweep 10mm out-cannel gouge. I have lots of carving tools handy, so it occurred to me that a gouge might easily slip through the plastic, avoiding any lost BB and making zero plastic mess - worked perfectly with a light push and wiggle, no need for any sort of jig, just hold them in one hand and poke the gouge in around the perimeter with the other. The feeling of the gouge blade slipping through plastic and hitting a couple of BBs is clear enough, then withdraw it and make another cut starting partially into the first cut, then carry on for 6 or 7 total cuts until the newly formed 'lid' just lifts out, freeing the contents but preserving the fold to restrain the cup intact.
- Emptying the BBs into a collective container for mixing with molten wax made no sense in terms of reliably restoring full projectile weight in each shell, so I opted for a single empty/mix with wax/refill approach using small blobs of wax melted with a little propane torch in the same small folded pellet tin as the lead BBs.
- Beeswax is very sticky and less subject to fracturing in cooling than paraffin, and I had a bunch on hand, so went with beeswax. Smells nice too. Seems to me beeswax might have a better chance of staying in one piece under the shock of firing compared to brittle paraffin, more likely to stay as a slug until initial contact with some obstacle, whereupon it would of course deform, convert loss of momentum into heat energy and melt, allowing the waxy BBs to fling wherever they do and dump energy quickly.
- Once melted until I see just a wisp of smoke and all the wax (about a teaspoon worth when solid) is melted among the lead, I pour from the folded pellet tin through the spout formed at one end directly into the open shell, coaxing the lead to move with a small stick to keep the level of molten, clear wax just a bit higher than the level of lead as it fills. Biggest difficulty I've found with the wax is having too much mixed in - you really want just enough to wet the lead plus a bit of a puddle around it. Too much wax tends to pour too soon, starting to congeal at the base on contact with the cool plastic cup, preventing enough lead from getting inside before the thing is full. There's one in my picture showing this - I managed to get the whole collection back in but they're sitting a bit high, level with the plastic rim. Much easier to top up with a bit of extra wax later than to try and prevent it flowing in at the same time as the shot.
- I don't quite fill them, instead leaving about 1mm from the top, then as it begins to cloud over to some depth I use a matched dowel to press gently, making sure there are no air bubbles. I then top it off to level with another few drops of melted beeswax and let fully cool. About half of them develop a tiny crack near the middle, so I'll heat that briefly with the little torch and dribble another drop or two on to seal it again. The finished wax can be from level to slightly lower than the plastic rim. They feed into the barrel exactly as easily as normal shells when pumping (Remington 870 Tac-14) so there's no issue with face shape or any distortion of the nose with hot wax. I think the cup preserves the size well enough. Without it, the shell itself seems rather fragile and prone to distortion.
The only problems I can see with this would be that the slightly sticky nature of beeswax might very slightly increase resistance of the wad from leaving the shell. But as there's not likely much leakage outside the petals of the cup this shouldn't be significant - still, not something I'd want to push by using on a full power load, perhaps better left to target loads. There's probably going to be a significant drop in muzzle velocity. These shells are rated at 1,200fps for a normal length shotgun barrel, so I'd guess maybe they lose 50fps through my 12.5" barrel. The added weight of the wax likely takes another 50fps off the muzzle velocity but if it stays intact in flight would preserve more momentum further out as it would behave more like a standard 1oz non-rifled slug. So I'll have to test for close range cohesion, longer range cohesion, then dispersion rates after striking a barrier of some sort, and finally penetration/destruction in a 'meat target' of some sort. Accuracy is a bit of a secondary consideration through a smooth bore with something as inherently sub-optimal as a wax slug, but I'll have to see if I can reasonably hold to POA to at least 20 yards. Should be fun!
Well Girard, I certainly admire your spirit 
Couple thoughts for you:
If hand-gouging the shells works for you, then have at ‘er. But I think you’d get more consistency with the hole saw:
The trick is to lower it down with the drill press, and once it cuts through, flick off the drill, then raise the bit and pop out the “plug” you cut. With this method, I don’t lose a single pellet. I can cut a box of 25 shells in about 8 minutes.
As for the bees wax... Not gonna lie, I don’t like it... makes me nervous. Paraffin is a lubricating wax. Bees wax is... well, sticky. And soft. So soft, that I think it’ll come apart in flight before it gets to the target. If I were a betting man, I’d wager you’ll get a bunch of jagged holes 2 feet wide at 25 yards. Hope I’m wrong though!
Another concern with the bees wax is the melting point. I think it melts about 10 degrees lower than other waxes. On a hot day, after firing a few rounds and heating up that barrel, be sooooper careful that you don’t chamber a round until you’re ready to shoot. You don’t want it melting in the barrel and oozing wax and shot into your chamber and barrel. I mean, don’t do that with ANY wax slug, but be even more careful with a lower melt point.
Have fun, and let us know how it goes.
Couple thoughts for you:
If hand-gouging the shells works for you, then have at ‘er. But I think you’d get more consistency with the hole saw:
The trick is to lower it down with the drill press, and once it cuts through, flick off the drill, then raise the bit and pop out the “plug” you cut. With this method, I don’t lose a single pellet. I can cut a box of 25 shells in about 8 minutes.
As for the bees wax... Not gonna lie, I don’t like it... makes me nervous. Paraffin is a lubricating wax. Bees wax is... well, sticky. And soft. So soft, that I think it’ll come apart in flight before it gets to the target. If I were a betting man, I’d wager you’ll get a bunch of jagged holes 2 feet wide at 25 yards. Hope I’m wrong though!
Another concern with the bees wax is the melting point. I think it melts about 10 degrees lower than other waxes. On a hot day, after firing a few rounds and heating up that barrel, be sooooper careful that you don’t chamber a round until you’re ready to shoot. You don’t want it melting in the barrel and oozing wax and shot into your chamber and barrel. I mean, don’t do that with ANY wax slug, but be even more careful with a lower melt point.
Have fun, and let us know how it goes.
Good thoughts, thanks for that effort. I'm a bit concerned about stickiness too, but then again with the petals of the shot cup being pretty tight and undisturbed by my use of the gouge to open the face it doesn't seem likely any wax is even making it to the shell wall.
As for melting in a hot barrel, or even on a hot day outdoors, I don't consider this an issue if one is talking strictly about an HD load. In an emergency situation it's most likely only one, maybe two shots would be required to resolve the situation sufficiently, and the barrel isn't going to be very warm at night nor will it have time to heat up due to extended shooting. It would be different if I were planning a string of closely space shots in the field, under direct sun. But for that I'm more likely to use slugs or plain shot, depending on the sorts of targets I'm plinking. The time put into making wax slugs seems to me entirely about preventing over-penetration while achieving better initial penetration compared to just shot. So when testing these in the field, I'm likely to take a long pause between loading wax slugs, easily sufficient to let the barrel cool. Though the beeswax I have doesn't seem all that different from paraffin in terms of ease of melting (it's a bit annoyingly slow to be honest) I'll be cautious about getting any melting in the chamber.
I suppose some may use wax slugs for actual hunting. I don't see the point. Why not just use a slug if it's not going to spread until target contact anyway? A rifled slug is going to offer better accuracy anyway. And it's cheaper, compared to the time put in converting shot shells to wax slug shells. Though it only takes me about 2 minutes start to finish per slug, that's not time I'd want to waste a lot for casual shooting. More like something to have handy for the HD gun and hope never to have to use...
As for melting in a hot barrel, or even on a hot day outdoors, I don't consider this an issue if one is talking strictly about an HD load. In an emergency situation it's most likely only one, maybe two shots would be required to resolve the situation sufficiently, and the barrel isn't going to be very warm at night nor will it have time to heat up due to extended shooting. It would be different if I were planning a string of closely space shots in the field, under direct sun. But for that I'm more likely to use slugs or plain shot, depending on the sorts of targets I'm plinking. The time put into making wax slugs seems to me entirely about preventing over-penetration while achieving better initial penetration compared to just shot. So when testing these in the field, I'm likely to take a long pause between loading wax slugs, easily sufficient to let the barrel cool. Though the beeswax I have doesn't seem all that different from paraffin in terms of ease of melting (it's a bit annoyingly slow to be honest) I'll be cautious about getting any melting in the chamber.
I suppose some may use wax slugs for actual hunting. I don't see the point. Why not just use a slug if it's not going to spread until target contact anyway? A rifled slug is going to offer better accuracy anyway. And it's cheaper, compared to the time put in converting shot shells to wax slug shells. Though it only takes me about 2 minutes start to finish per slug, that's not time I'd want to waste a lot for casual shooting. More like something to have handy for the HD gun and hope never to have to use...
Nope nope nope. Not unless it’s teotwawki.
The primary use of wax slugs is cheap range fun. A box of target loads turned into wax slugs are a quarter of the price of normal slugs. Plus there’s less recoil compared to standard slugs.
Well if that's your frame of reference, then I guess I should clarify my own position on a shotgun. It's not something I'm likely to pull the trigger on any more times than necessary to develop a basic competence with the gun. I'm more a small/light projectile fan, finding 9mm fun but a bit harsh. Most of my trigger time is with PCP airguns, whether a Pardini 10m competition pistol, or a thing I rebuilt to the point of being utterly different from the rifle it started out to be for longer range plinking. Occasionally an old Webley air pistol for silly campsite plinking at pine cones where precision isn't so important. A shotgun or serious centre fire rifle doesn't appeal to me much. Just seemed like something one should have, considering the odds on a decent into chaos we're seeing of late, covering the bases. I can see how folks might have fun shooting shotguns. Just not my thing, same as machine guns - I can watch Ian shooting a machine gun on ForgottenWeapons and appreciate his joy in the things but am not even slightly tempted to shoot one myself.
So from that perspective, having a few boxes of rifled slugs tucked away is more something I'm unlikely to use, almost more of a potential barter item. Not going to break the bank for me in that context.
So from that perspective, having a few boxes of rifled slugs tucked away is more something I'm unlikely to use, almost more of a potential barter item. Not going to break the bank for me in that context.
Birdshot could still kill, and buckshot may not. The point is still being missed, though it's not surprising since this is how this topic always goes... In circles. Use whatever and hope you come out on top.
Pretty good chance you'll be dealing with a horrific, life altering or even potentially lethal wound not just digging pellets out of them. Again, point missed. If you think you can just shoot without concern because you are loaded with birdshot you are mistaken.
This topic always delivers....
Your house, your rules.....
Many choose to be armed with nothing more then a telephone.
There is a continuum of force that could be applied for self defense.... and a shotgun loaded with birdshot is on it somewhere in the middle.
Your house, your rules.....
Many choose to be armed with nothing more then a telephone.
There is a continuum of force that could be applied for self defense.... and a shotgun loaded with birdshot is on it somewhere in the middle.
My first line is a stout length of Douglas fir dowel, heavy enough and with very straight grain such that it provides both a decent 'baseball bat' style defensive tool and a perfect door stop, cut to length so that with a firm push it jams between wall and door. It would take an individual of exceptional athleticism and mass to break through considering the strong nature of the door, the industrial strength hinges, the long screws at the lock into the doorframe, and the bracing dowel at the base which even with the door unlocked renders it immovable in my testing. Being atop a few steps makes it so much more difficult; no real footing available. If someone comes through the shared main door violently, that dowel is going to get dropped into place if I can get to it fast enough. If not, there are levels of fall-back plans. Should it escalate to the level of shotgun use (after a couple of other tools to which I'm likely to resort before a shotgun), my kid would be approximately behind me and a floor above, very unlikely to suffer any ill effects. I'd be more concerned about the elderly neighbour across the way...
I expect that Cameron SS's argument is based on a worst case outcome, an example (digging pellets out of your kid as contrasted with arranging your kid's funeral) intended to convey that at least the odds of a better outcome might be had by going to wax slugs with small shot as compared to the several times deeper penetration potential of buckshot or true slugs. At least that's how I took it, and that perspective echoes my own understanding of the best argument for wax slug use in an HD shotgun. Especially going to lower powered target loads - the combined benefit of more controllable shots and follow-ups, especially with one of the shorter versions typically bought with such emergencies in mind, or for packing and bear defence of course (though obviously one would be foolish to load wax slugs for the latter, there being no walls behind the bear to worry about), and vastly reduced barrier penetration.
While Paul Harrell's videos covering various shot and slug penetration through typical house wall layers (and other guys' videos corroborating his results) don't address wax slugs with small shot per se, it seems likely that owing to the way a wax slug breaks up immediately upon impact(as seen in the ballistic gel tests) that we could add 1, maybe 2 layers of drywall to the total penetration risk. For my particular situation, this would cover concerns around putting a slug through a bedroom in a neighbour's house, not so much any rooms in our own home. But that comes down to layout. Every house design provides different potential backstops. A 1oz slug is just too likely to pass through an entire house. Birdshot not so much, probably 1/3 the penetration potential of a slug at the same velocity. So Cameron's example makes sense to me. Of course one would never want to face an injury such as this to a loved one. But doesn't it make sense to mitigate such potential as much as possible, while also allowing for the possibility that a 'cannon' such as a 12ga shotgun may well be the only way to stop a determined attacker? Compromises to be sure, but calculated compromises.
I have to ask this: got any windows?
None which are accessible from the ground. We're on the top 2 floors of a 4 story 100-year-old house. So fire is really our biggest concern in terms of outside attack, hence the fire extinguishers spread throughout the place along with our ample supply of gallon jugs of water in the corners of most rooms (for drinking in an emergency obviously, but also useful for throwing at fire). The back porch could see someone climbing up and smashing the back porch door's window. It'd be hard for someone to climb through that, but they could then reach the reinforced latch and open it. I think I'd have heard them struggling to get up the fire escape ladder, clamboring through the plants and BBQ, and by the time they'd got to the window I'd be facing them with something discouraging in hand.
Our main floor and ground level neighbours (good people all around, no smokers among them - they all quit within the past few years) have barred windows, the ground level guy has his hunting rifles. I think we're okay-ish. Of course a castle would be nifty... but they're cold in winter.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There is something to be said about escalation of force.
- They broke into my house, they escalated the situation and the response.
Shotgun and light (wife can do the 911)
- Bad-guy will be asked to put his hand up where I can see them, and lay down on the floor...
If there is a threat to my life (or a loved one) it will be 000 buckshots, followed slugs/slugs/slugs/slugs (reload) until the threat is stopped.
- I am not a trick shooter, so under stress, don't expect me to take arm or leg shots. It will be center of mass.
- Killing someone is the very last thing I want to do... But I refuse to be a statistic because someone made poor-life-choices.
- They broke into my house, they escalated the situation and the response.
Shotgun and light (wife can do the 911)
- Bad-guy will be asked to put his hand up where I can see them, and lay down on the floor...
If there is a threat to my life (or a loved one) it will be 000 buckshots, followed slugs/slugs/slugs/slugs (reload) until the threat is stopped.
- I am not a trick shooter, so under stress, don't expect me to take arm or leg shots. It will be center of mass.
- Killing someone is the very last thing I want to do... But I refuse to be a statistic because someone made poor-life-choices.
The various opinions on this matter seem somewhat absurd. On one hand you have those who insist that one should ABSOLUTELY NEVER consider any size birdshot for defensive use as it just isn't nearly likely enough to stop the threat. This is actually a majority opinion from what I've seen in various US forums. Almost the same vehemence is brought to bear on the subject of a .22lr handgun for the same purpose; the cartridge is just too weak, a bad guy will shrug it off, and you and your loved ones will die. A great portion of those on this side of the argument go so far as to insist 9mm Luger is grossly under-powered and will get you killed if you're stupid enough to use it against a bad guy - ignoring the fact that the majority of light sub machine guns weren't chambered in this exact cartridge for use by soldiers during WWII. Im pretty sure soldiers were trying to stop threats with those things... It's almost as though the zombies invading people's homes are from Krypton. 'Bullets? What bullets? You are spraying me with pepper, I am amused, now I kill you...'
On the other side you've got guys like B, saying variations on his theme that you dare not use birdshot, or by extension a .22lr, or by extension a 9mm Luger cartridge, as these will surely pass through multiple barriers whether or not you hit your intended target and family members or neighbours will surely be slaughtered.
Either might happen. There are a lot of variables. But from the testing I've seen, it looks like one of the best combinations of effectiveness and risk avoidance comes with a 12ga #7.5 or #8 shot wax slug, preferably in a low recoil or target type load. Somewhere close to speed of sound, decent control for follow-up shots as needed, single significant barriers more likely than not to slow the pellets to sub-lethal energy levels. The gel test seems very convincing. Excellent initial penetration then extremely, almost comically rapid wide expansion inside the target to about 6" with ultimate penetration on par with some of the weakest types of subsonic .22lr in ballistics gel. The core in that test remained un-melted, what looked like around 1/2 of the load, and carried on to about double the depth, less than a foot. This does not look like a load which will go through a lot of walls.
On the other side you've got guys like B, saying variations on his theme that you dare not use birdshot, or by extension a .22lr, or by extension a 9mm Luger cartridge, as these will surely pass through multiple barriers whether or not you hit your intended target and family members or neighbours will surely be slaughtered.
Either might happen. There are a lot of variables. But from the testing I've seen, it looks like one of the best combinations of effectiveness and risk avoidance comes with a 12ga #7.5 or #8 shot wax slug, preferably in a low recoil or target type load. Somewhere close to speed of sound, decent control for follow-up shots as needed, single significant barriers more likely than not to slow the pellets to sub-lethal energy levels. The gel test seems very convincing. Excellent initial penetration then extremely, almost comically rapid wide expansion inside the target to about 6" with ultimate penetration on par with some of the weakest types of subsonic .22lr in ballistics gel. The core in that test remained un-melted, what looked like around 1/2 of the load, and carried on to about double the depth, less than a foot. This does not look like a load which will go through a lot of walls.
My only quibble would be this. If they're serious about harming you or your family, the odds go up that they have come prepared and are wearing at least a cheap level 3a vest. I'd suggest dropping the barrel a foot or so for a lower abdomen/groin point of aim. Not trick shooting, pretty much identical to traditional centre mass aim just a bit lower, allowing for the increasing trend to buy vests and plates which a shotgun won't likely penetrate. Not that a bad guy will shrug off a vest full of buckshot or a slug, but you don't want to take the chance at that point of them having the wherewithal to take a shot of their own.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The combination of one 000 buckshot shell followed by several slugs is routine for shotgun only hog hunters south east USA.
Once you break into open country the single and first buckshot shell immediately replaced with a slug.
That first buckshot shell was for very close encounters in the thickets only.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
With a lot of little people living in my house, Id rather aim a touch high rather than low. I also dont expect many home invaders in Canada wearing armour in anticipation of a gun fight.
