Black Feeding Frenzy

weaselsrippedmyflesh

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Hey. I got drunk and was wondering if anyone had any ideas concerning how fear of the government and its restrictions are driving up the price of black rifles. I admit that I am new to this game, but I feel a huge amount of pressure to buy a bunch of stuff simply because I might not be able to get it later. Does this type of thing come in cycles, or is it a new development? I cant help but wonder if we are whipping ourselves into a frenzy, and as a result becoming our own worst enemy. How much trading on the EE is done as pure profit sales of unfired guns that might be hard to get later? I can`t comprehend buying a gun and not shooting it, and I realize some people have reasons, but does anyone really need a $1400 CZ858? What can we do about this? Not trying to be a douche, just wondering if there is an end in sight, or if I will regret not sucking it up and buying what I could now.
 
I too am concerned about wether or not I will be able to get a Black rifle in the next couple of months and feel as if I need to rush out and buy one asap or I may never be able to get one. I think my fear isn't just the possibility of the canadian government banning them but the fact that the new president in the U.S. wants to ban the shipping of black rifles made in the U.S. to Canada among other firearms.

This really concerns me because I am a left handed shooter and am considering getting a Stag Arms 2L or 2TL. To the best of my knowledge its the only manufacture of left handed AR's. Realisticly I can't see them banning the shipping of such firearms into Canada as this would hurt a already troubled economy in the U.S. . I guess only time will tell.
 
It is already publicly known that at least one CGN dealer will be selling high quality AR upper in summer. At least one dealer here is making lower already.

European stuff will always flow into Canada.

Lots of fear mongering - some people still think they can BS on the internet like the way they BS at local clubs or gunshop to make a quick buck on spreading rumour like an expert without being challenged.

If you want something, buy it - but personally I think some people are amplifing some rumours for personal agenda at EE to prey on others - like the 1400 dollars CZ585.
 
IMHO, it happens periodically. Before the last election, for example.

But, there is one way to make sure that this fear mongering doesn't get under your skin as much. Buy a black rifle. :)

If you already own one you love, you'll be less inclined to get freaked out by the rumours. Sure, one is never enough... but at least with one, you know you won't be screwed if something did happen.
 
Why would the US ban exports of the one industry that is actually growing in these "harsh economic times?"

It's all about control. Soon you will see bans within the U.S., it's already on the horizon. For us too. Get what you want now while you still can at a reasonable price. I missed out on the last round of prohibitions, not this time.
I'm not a pessimist, just a realist.
 
Its got nothing to do with the US gov or manufacturing at home. Every six months some idiot in our own government or the media comes up with another way to "Get tough on guns". They make up rules to make it harder to enjoy & use whatever firearms we have whether or not they are supported by law. Gun owners have no recourse other than writing letters & supporting relatively weak advocacy groups to stem the tide of bs. Its like trying to empty the ocean with a tea spoon. My advice, get it while you can if you can.
 
Obama isn't the reason for export restrictions, they were doing it before he got in - he'll just make it worse and he'll be the cause of whatever problems are going to come up down south. As already mentioned, the US is only one supplier, we have sub $1000 ARs coming from China, other goodies coming from Europe and Asia, producers making stuff here, and rumours about reclassification here are just rumours so far, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

The guy with the $1400 CZ does deserve a swift hard kick between the legs though. Preferably repeatedly.
 
I think there may be reason to worry. I had allways wanted an FN C1 as i had used the rifle in the army cadets as a kid. They were selling for a few hundred bucks but i was going to school and i could'nt afford it. My buddy went into debt to get the Galil he allways wanted.
Well geuss what by the time i finished school my buddy had Prohib status and i was screwed. Another friend had given up his Spas 12 shotgun to the police without compensation because they asked for it.
Just my two bits but if there is a firearm you like BUY IT. Gun regulations are not going to ever get better only worse.
 
I think there may be reason to worry. I had allways wanted an FN C1 as i had used the rifle in the army cadets as a kid. They were selling for a few hundred bucks but i was going to school and i could'nt afford it. My buddy went into debt to get the Galil he allways wanted.
Well geuss what by the time i finished school my buddy had Prohib status and i was screwed. Another friend had given up his Spas 12 shotgun to the police without compensation because they asked for it.
Just my two bits but if there is a firearm you like BUY IT. Gun regulations are not going to ever get better only worse.

I got a student loan to fund a Colt LE6920 and a Dan Wesson CBOB 10mm + other toys. The best part is I don't even need the government's money to pay for my education... I simply get a really big kick out of using the government's own money to buy s**t that they want to ban. :D

Did I mention they don't even want me to pay it all back after I graduate? :p
 
Obama is the reason why almost every dealer is out of stock when it comes to AR parts south of the border.

Its so bad that retailers are putting one upper limit per customer as a lot of people buy the stuff up then list it on gunbroker / AF.com for $200-$400 more.....
 
The government down south is the reason why AR parts dealers are being beaten out of stock.

Obama is just a symptom of elitist libral azzholes controlling the population with bad laws, bad government, bad regulation and fear.

We have the same problem here, just in smaller doses.

As for the thread... I'm in the same boat, missed out on short barrels cause I was young and poor. Now I'm going to miss out on black and probably pistols because I'm older have children and my choice of career is poorly paid by the same people who want to take away my guns. Funny though that they don't seem to mind sending me into harms way to protect the way they think.
 
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As for the thread... I'm in the same boat, missed out on short barrels cause I was young and poor. Now I'm going to miss out on black and probably pistols because I'm older have children and my choice of career is poorly paid by the same people who want to take away my guns. Funny though that they don't seem to mind sending me into harms way to protect the way they think.


Wow. Never thought about it like that. Brother if I win the lottery one day you’re getting some presents. And thank you by the way
 
Hey. I got drunk and was wondering if anyone had any ideas concerning how fear of the government and its restrictions are driving up the price of black rifles. I admit that I am new to this game, but I feel a huge amount of pressure to buy a bunch of stuff simply because I might not be able to get it later. Does this type of thing come in cycles, or is it a new development? I cant help but wonder if we are whipping ourselves into a frenzy, and as a result becoming our own worst enemy. How much trading on the EE is done as pure profit sales of unfired guns that might be hard to get later? I can`t comprehend buying a gun and not shooting it, and I realize some people have reasons, but does anyone really need a $1400 CZ858? What can we do about this? Not trying to be a douche, just wondering if there is an end in sight, or if I will regret not sucking it up and buying what I could now.

Someone suggested to get one black gun and shop carefully thereafter - I agree. No sense jumping on whatever you can lay your hands on and trying to chase the market. Things were coming and going in cyrcles last couple years. I have seen some M14's "bought on a rumour and sold on the news" with a loss and I have also seen some stuff that was everywhere cheap only to get harder and harder to find at much higher price. Canada is fairly small market and 100 pieces could flood the market for months and then disappear suddenly. I say you will see all kinds of good deals coming your way if you are patient enough.
 
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/mattis1.html (Link includes graphics)

Since Obama’s victory in November, Smith and Wesson and Ruger, the only two publically traded US gun makers, have experienced major increases in their stock prices. Ammo manufacturers are running 24/7 attempting to keep up with demand. Military-pattern semi-automatic rifles, including AR-15’s and AK-clones are expensive, stocked-out, or both. Are these price increases "gouging," as some would say, or are they a natural response to the forces of supply and demand? If these prices are elevated over normal conditions, will they continue to soar upwards? To both questions I say, "No, there is no gouging, prices will probably fall in the future."

Ruger and S&W share prices from Election Day to the present:



Since mid-late 2008, the gun market has bifurcated into two separate and distinct segments. Understanding the difference is very important. Historically, hunting rifles and sporting shotguns have made up the lion's share of civilian gun sales. Smith and Wesson (SWHC) attempted to capitalize on this trend in 2007 by purchasing Thompson/Center arms (a niche upscale maker of muzzleloaders and single shot hunting rifles) and importing a line of high-end Turkish shotguns and rebranding them as S&W. Unfortunately, their timing was proven to be pretty bad. Since the stock market fell into freefall last October, sales of hunting rifles, sporting shotguns, and accessories for the like have fallen off dramatically. Hard numbers are difficult to come by, but speaking to dealers at the 2009 SHOT (Shooting Hunting Outdoor Trade) Show, sales have fallen dramatically. Hunting as a segment is shrinking, and rifles are a long-lived asset. So hunting rifle demand has cratered.

Now, onto the "booming" segment of the gun market.

Three sub-divisions are worth highlighting:

Semi-automatic handguns and accessories (magazines mostly)
Military-pattern semi-automatic rifles (AR-15's, AK-clones, etc.) and accessories (magazines and parts)
Ammunition and ammunition components
Since it became likely that Obama was going to win the election, groups like the NRA and GOA (Gun Owners of America) have been highlighting past statements by Obama and his Attorney General, Eric Holder, suggesting that while in office he would ban and regulate guns much more severely than previous administrations.

Highlighted proposals include: A 500% ammo tax, a ban on all military-pattern rifles, a ban on magazines with a greater than ten round capacity, federally licensing all gun owners and registering their guns. As a result, gun shows, ranges, military bases, shooting matches, online forums, etc., have been a cacophony of people fueling the fear of an upcoming ban. Gun owners, who have never seen, much less held a military-pattern rifle, are going out and purchasing $1200 AR-15's, a pile of 30-round magazines, and cases of 5.56mm ammo. Gun owners that already own such a rifle are going out and purchasing all the military pattern rifles they think they will EVER want/need. The presumption, of course, is that the ban will be similar to the federal Assault Weapon Ban of 1994 or the California ban of 2000 that grandfathered all preexisting guns. The AWB of 1994 in particular, because transfer after the ban was legal, caused prices for grandfathered guns to double or triple over their post-ban counterparts. S&W was smart to introduce the M&P line of pistols and rifles, which have been selling VERY well since November.

Ammo prices from 2003–2007 tracked the run up in the price of lead, copper, and brass.



Following the major correction of lead, copper, and zinc prices in 2008, one might have assumed that ammo prices would have fallen as well. Wrong. Instead, ammo prices have soared even higher. Last year, Q3131 (Winchester’s standard 5.56mm commercial ammo) could be found as cheaply as 28 cents per round. Now prices have risen to roughly 50 cents per round. Other military calibers, 9x19, 7.62x51 NATO, 7.62x39, 5.45x39, have also increased substantially, some having doubled or tripled in price. Pistol ammo, while not affected to the same extent of rifle ammo, has all but vanished from the shelves of almost every major retailer in South Florida. Primers (one of the key requirements to manufacture ammo) have increased in price by about 50%, and their availability has also declined.

The questions I have:

Are these trends sustainable?
When will these markets return to normal?
To answer these with certainty, I would need a crystal ball regarding policy in the Obama administration. I could definitely be wrong on this, but given the continuing economic catastrophe, gun control is probably the last thing on Obama's mind. The Democrats have not forgotten 1994, the year they were thrown out of office for voting yes on the Assault Weapon Ban. Also, in 1994, gun ownership was very different than in 2009. In 1994, it was MUCH easier for the politicians to split the gun owners down the middle into "hunters and sportsmen," who owned bolt-action rifles and skeet guns, and "gun nuts" who owned "crazy assault weapons." The latter group was small and easily marginalized. Eric Holder, the new Attorney General, has stated on several occasions his desire to enact draconian new gun control laws. Nancy Pelosi, on the other hand has shot down the idea, for now.

These days, the two groups are considerably more mixed. The AR15 (the civilian version of the M16) is the dominant rifle in ALL forms of rifle competition outside of some niche sports (benchrest, biathlon, etc.). Remington, the hunting rifle maker (owned by Cerberus Capital), has rebranded Bushmaster (another Cerberus portfolio company) AR-15's as hunting rifles. These days, the AR-15, far from being the choice of militia members and wingnuts, has become the best selling rifle in America for hunting, self-defense, competition, and general collecting. So trying to outlaw them would be political suicide for politicians from either party. Also, the Supreme Court has stated in the 2008 Heller decision that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms, so even if a ban were enacted, it would be unlikely to hold, in my opinion. Clayton Cramer is probably one of the best equipped to discuss the jurisprudence on the matter, but the wording of the Heller opinion makes a ban on rifles that are common and not unusually dangerous unlikely to stand up.

If we assume that there is no second assault weapon ban, where does that fact get us? Well, let’s look at the microeconomics of supply. Many start-ups, consisting of little more than a couple of machinists and a CNC mill have begun cranking out serialized rifle components. Many have bought expensive and unique tooling; those people are going to want to stay in the business until the price of parts falls below marginal cost. While I don't have precise estimates on costs, I do know that AR-15 lower receiver forgings can be purchased for $35 dollars and the finished product sold in 2005 for $90 dollars and now sells for $175–300 dollars. To me, this suggests that prices may have a long way to fall to a new equilibrium. Regarding ammo, supply hasn't responded as quickly. Ammo production is a capital-intensive business and the supply of newly manufactured ammo competes with foreign ammo and foreign military surplus. Supplies of foreign military surplus ammo seem to be drying up. In addition, most ammo companies are running 24/7 to meet demand for military contracts. There are some signs supply might be increasing: Black Hills (a prominent producer of match ammo) has bought a 65,000SF facility to triple capacity. Handguns are considerably more differentiated than military-pattern rifles. No significant startups can be expected to enter because of the present high demand. The big names, S&W, Ruger, Glock, Sig, etc. don't seem to be dramatically adding capacity, as they probably expect the bump in demand to be temporary.

What about demand for all these products? I think this will be crucial. Can gun-ban anxiety panic shopping be sustained for four (or maybe eight years)? No, and I think we're beginning to see signs of cracking. Having spoken to gun owners, gun dealers, gun show exhibitors, and other people in this industry, I find that the undercurrent of what people are beginning to say is, "Okay, I have what I need." For a gun owner of modest means, that means an AR-15, 10 magazines, a quality handgun, 10 magazines, and a few thousand rounds of ammo for each. A key point to remember is the backdrop of this is still the ongoing depression; consumers are cutting back, de-levering, selling their knickknacks. When people fear losing their job, $450 dollars for a case of military surplus 5.56mm becomes substantially less attractive, especially when it sold for $125 just a few years ago. Most consumers will likely build their stockpile, and if they lose their job, be forced to divest some of it to make ends meet.

For the change in ammo demand to be sustainable, gun owners would have to be shooting thousands of rounds per month, which aside from a few thousand competitive shooters, is unlikely. Military demand for ammo has been consuming the majority of domestically produced military caliber ammo. Currently, Olin, Prvi Partisan, IMI, Black Hills, and several other companies are producing flat out to meet military demand. As military contracts get priority, this has squeezed supplies to the civilian market. Is this sustainable? Possibly, but unless Obama is planning on invading Pakistan, demand should fall as we disengage from Iraq. However, if Obama proves to be a hawk, this trend could continue.

Based on the preceding, I think that increasing supply and decreasing demand will alleviate the scarcity and reduce the price of most military pattern weapons and ammo. However, there are risks that events could complicate this analysis. The most obvious possibility is that a ban DOES come into effect. But again, this would likely cause a temporary hyperbolic rise in market prices, but a permanent curtailment of demand for the products of S&W, Ruger, Bushmaster, DPMS, Remington, etc. Another possibility is that the increased attention to guns due to crime and Obama represent a secular shift in the attitude of the public. Indeed, there are signs of this. Florida has a backlog of 93,000 citizens applying for concealed carry permits. Tennessee has also experienced soaring gun purchases and permit applications. Concealed carry permit holders tend to differ from hunters in their consumption patterns. Hunters tend to buy bolt-action rifles, concealed carry permit holders purchase small handguns. Concealed carry permit holders also tend to purchase "tactical" training and equipment (rifles, shotguns, etc). Concealed carry permit holders also tend to be more politically active than hunters. Once this "new batch" of gun owners is armed, their demand for guns will fall along with their demand for fancy cars, RV's, vacations, and other consumer discretionary purchases.

I believe I have laid out a case that suggests that the torrid boom in the gun industry may be a frictional blip in response to the Obama election, similar to IT spending in preparation for Y2K. Eventually, however, increasing supply and decreasing demand will put downward pressure on prices and backlogs.

Opinions?
 
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