Black powder charges

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petew

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I often read where shooters are far exceeding any load table I have looked at, yet it seems almost normal. many of the quoted loads are far in excess of the Goex tables, http://goexpowder.com/load-chart.html as well as the Investarm tables, Lyman, TC , and Pedersoli tables. Where are these guys getting the information to load so heavy from ? Does safety not come into the amount of BP being loaded ? Some loads being written about are double the load charts I can find.

pete
 
While there is some concern on overloading BP, it's not quite the same as with smokeless.

"For Example" People have gotten away with running 100's of loads of 200 grains of BP in a .75 musket "because that's the historic military load blah blah ect." Not figuring in that modern BP quality is worlds better/more potent, I don't run my .75 past 90 grains.

You can blow up a gun with overloads of Black powder, it's just harder to do than with smokeless. The Pressure Curve is much more abrupt on smokeless powders. Even if the peak PSI is the same, the "sharpness" of the increase is much more severe. I think that is where the metals have the problems, not so much the peak PSI.

That's my take on the situation, take it for whatever it's worth.
 
Sir - I do not agree with your statement about the present-day quality of BP. Swiss BP, made using the expensive willow charcoal, is the very nearest that we ever get these days to the common powder of the 19th century. You'll note, I hope, that it is generally accepted that Swiss powder is at the pinnacle of performance and efficiency - AND cost - precisely because it IS made the way ALL BP was once made. Here in UK the MLAGB has members with close family ties to former manufacturers of BP, and trials over the years have proved that by comparison even with long-preserved old BP, no modern BP except the Swiss schtuff, is as good. That is to say, efficiently bangful and productive of propellant gas products, as the old stuff.

I used to obtain exactly the same POA/POI with my Whitworth - shooting a Polisar 600gr hexagonal bullet at 600 yards - with 85gr of Swiss as I did with 95gr of the so-called 'Fine rifle FFg' sold by well-known dealer here in UK.

Here in UK it is jokingly said that what we get in general is what is left over after making fireworks - I'm inclined to believe it.

tac
 
Anybody who exceeds the max load given in a manual is begging for trouble. Those twits think the powder makers are deliberately reducing published loads due to their lawyers telling them to so.
BP is loaded, in grains, by volume and doesn't give anywhere near the pressures any smokeless powder does. However, the twits who over load with BP are very likely the same ones who go past max loads of smokeless. Don't pay any attention to those guys and follow your manual.
 
When I first started shooting black powder 30 years ago, the common consensus was that if you overcharged your rifle with black, no worries. There was only time for so much powder to burn before the ball exited the barrel, and the surplus was either burned in a blaze of glory after the bullet exited, or was harmlessly spewed out on the ground unburnt. Of course, the longer the barrel, the more time there is for excess powder to burn, perhaps creating more pressure. I am not sure if this old saw is correct, but I can tell you for fact, that if you shoot large charges out of a short barreled rifle in the winter, there will be lots of what appears to be unburnt powder on the snow beyond the muzzle. As for why guys insist on shooting these excessive charges, I don't get it. I used to shoot 90 grains in my .50 cal Lyman Great Plains rifle, but after some research, I started experimenting with lighter charges. I finally settled on 45 grains for target shooting. It was much more accurate, less recoil, cheaper. I use more than that for hunting loads, but never more than 75 grains. I have compelling evidence that it shoots better, and in a hunting situation, accuracy is worth far more than a bit of extra muzzle velocity.
 
Pete: You didn't advise whether you are referring to shooting PRB's, sabotted slugs in in-lines or BPCR. I never load PRB's for max velocity because it is a waste of powder, if nothing else, and my concern is max accuracy so mild loads prevail in my PRB rifles. As an example, in my 54 cal longrifle I shoot targets with 60 gr GOEX FFFg and my hunting load is 85 gr. With every deer I have killed, the ball passed completely through the animal so no shortage of energy.With the modern steels used now, I believe it would be difficult to dangerously overload a cartridge rifle like 38-55 or 45-90 with BP, given the limited case capacity. Some of the stories I read about 150 + grain Pyrodex pellet loads in in-lines loaded with slugs cause me a bit of concern, however.
 
In an older copy of Sam Fadala's book "Black Powder Loading Manual" (dated 1991) he gas a chapter on black powder pressures.

He mentions the old "Law" that claimed black powder pressures never exceeded 25,000 PSI regardless. Then Mr. Fadala goes on to mention tests done by the US Navy that showed black powder can produce pressures over 100,000 PSI!

Then Mr. Fadala goes on to blow up a bunch of "test" guns with black powder.

Black powder should be treated with respect! There's the "Law of Diminishing Returns".
 
I'm using 60grs of Goex ffg in my 3 band Enfield with a 500gr minie. That was the standard U.S. load. Yesterday I chronographed 4 shots out of a clean barrel not swabbing between shots. 1st was 975fps, 2nd 1020fps 3rd 1015fps and 4th went down to 950fps. which I read was about the average. I could reduce it but I like the thump it gives. So in a proper gun the original military loads are no problem. The Brits used 68grs with a heavier ball.
 
Ol' Flinter said:
Pete: You didn't advise whether you are referring to shooting PRB's, sabotted slugs in in-lines or BPCR. I never load PRB's for max velocity because it is a waste of powder, if nothing else, and my concern is max accuracy so mild loads prevail in my PRB rifles. As an example, in my 54 cal longrifle I shoot targets with 60 gr GOEX FFFg and my hunting load is 85 gr. With every deer I have killed, the ball passed completely through the animal so no shortage of energy.With the modern steels used now, I believe it would be difficult to dangerously overload a cartridge rifle like 38-55 or 45-90 with BP, given the limited case capacity. Some of the stories I read about 150 + grain Pyrodex pellet loads in in-lines loaded with slugs cause me a bit of concern, however.
Click to expand...

I am referring to Flinters and cap locks both with PRB and Conicals .
 
Just to quickly touch on something I see referred to all the time that is absolutely incorrect.
There is no difference between a thrown charge and a weighed charge. Try it for yourself to confirm.
Set your volume measure for anything. Throw the charge,just simply throw the charge, no tapping or shaking to settle the powder, level it with the rotating spout and then pour it onto a powder scale. With 2f or 3f BLACK POWDER the readings will be within tenths of a grain.
Grain is a weight measurement and volume measures are designed to duplicate weight.

Pyrodex of course is completely different. As it is really smokeless powder that has been bulked up and crap added to it to make it smokey the weight will be lower.

But returning to the OP
Yes sadly there are idiots that have absolutely no idea what their doing or why their doing it. They just want to be the guy with the biggest bang in their gun. You cant fix stupid.
As long as the ball is seated on the powder its likely that they can skate by oblivious to any real clue. As one poster said the excess charge will mostly end up on the snow. In order to utilize overcharges you need to be able to add compression and the arm just isnt strong enough to be able to compress it sufficiently.

As for inlines. Well they are in another realm and as far as Im concerned they shouldnt be considered "black powder" anything. Most of them are focusing on Magnum performance now. The marketing is obviously targeted toward aforementioned group. They shoot large loads of a smokeless wannabe powder heck some of them can even shoot smokeless. In reality they are just a modern cartridge gun thats being loaded sans cartridge. Harry Pope and HW Mann tried it over a hundred years ago so its not new.
 
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