Black Power loading a 1851 Navy Revolver

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bush1

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I have a Pietta 1851 Navy Revolver coming from Wolverine and am looking for some powder handling ideas. I thought I have everything I need but now looking for the best way to get powder properly from the Goex plastic can to my CVA adjustable powder measure that can be set to 20 grains. The new Goex cans are plastic so the spouts for the old cans don't fit and unfortunately, I don't have an old can around.

I'm thinking I should have picked up a CVA brass 2.5 oz Flask with the 20 grain spout instead and not bothered with the adjustable measure. I have been looking online and don't see anyone listing one in my area of Eastern Ontario or anywhere else in Canada as well. This is what I'm looking for:

View attachment 404290

Any better ideas?
 
Just a thought - one of the No-No's of black powder is you never load powder directly from the horn or flask into the firearm. You have essentially a hand grenade if there is still a glowing spark in the bore. Having said that I have pouring caps that fit the Goexx plastic containers but shipping on a $2- item is ridiculous.
 
I pour into a 38 shellcasing, then into the chamber. 38 seems to be perfect as a measure for my pietta.
I have tried a 357, but it feels just a bit to hot for a brass frame.
 
Your desire for 20 grains suggests to me that you've got a .36. Is this the case or is it a .44?

20 grains for a .36 might in fact be a bit stout of you're looking for an accuracy load. But it would be a fun amount to use for the slight extra kick and smoke.

The guys above are making a good case for using casings to hold the charges. I've only recently started to do that myself where I dump my 30 grains into Win 30-30 casings then dump those each into the chambers. My guns all being .44's and 30 grains being a charge that doesn't result in the balls setting too deep into the chambers.

I've got a couple of flasks that I use and a few measures with them. By all means check with Hillfolk. But if they don't have what you need I know that I saw these flasks and some spouts on the wall at Rusty Wood last time I was there.

The CVA flask is nice but there's a little longer size which I'd suggest instead of the small one you show in the picture. The short one won't last a day of shooting if you do more than 3 or 5 reloads.

I'd also suggest a few extra spouts so you can trim the length to arrive at different weight charges. And if you didn't know the grains in "volume" from the spouts is supposed to weigh the same amount on a scale. There really is no such thing as "volume grains". It's just a shortcut or abbreviation for "this spout drops 20grains by weight of black powder". So if you have a reloading scale you can use it to trim a spout's length to drop the weight of charge you want in grains.
 
For a .44 I am running between 32 and 36 grains in a brass frame "Navy Arms" which is a branded Pietta. I bought the wrong flask, for .36, so I bought a separate adjustable measure, and put witness marks on it for range.
 
I shoot a Ruger Old Army in the winter shoot league and struggled with powder handling also.

I found that eBay offers small plastic tubes with screw on caps that work well to measure powder into. I fill them up at home and carry them in a standard plastic ammo fliptop. They are easy to use and allow for a fumble free way to keep a powder horn away from the pistol. Google "Black Powder Compatible-Charge Tubes".

I have yet to find a good way to carry the lead balls or fiber washers that I use.
 
The flasks are handy but another easy way to go is a dipper.
Could be a yellow Lee dipper from their set or find a cartridge case the right size and solder or glue a wire handle on it. Then you can fill from a flask, can or horn or you can scoop from a bowl to load or fill charge tubes.

Trying to keep the shooting line clear of powder is a top priority. It and all loading should be kept on a seperate table a few yards behind the firing line and only caps taken to the shooting position. This can be challenging at some ranges. Many RO'S aren't familiar with black powder stuff and the procedures to ensure safe loading.
 
Meroh said:
For a .44 I am running between 32 and 36 grains in a brass frame "Navy Arms" which is a branded Pietta. I bought the wrong flask, for .36, so I bought a separate adjustable measure, and put witness marks on it for range.
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In my nigh-on fifty-five years experience shooting BP firearms, that load is just way too much in a brass-frame revolver, and might be considered as a top-level load in a steel frame. I shoot 25gr in my Ruger Old Army since the day I got it in 1986, and it does does fine for me.

Steel-framed .44cal like between 25 and 30 gr of 3Fg - brass-framed at least five grains less.

Steel-framed .36cal like something around 18 - 20gr - brass-framed at least 3 -5 gr less. NOT because they are less effective, but because the frames can literally stretch, allowing the cylinder to hammer the arbour and enlarge the wedge slot, making the whole gun loose and looser until it finally fails to fire. this will not happen over a few hundred shots, but is accumulative over a longer period.
 
Ok, an update. Nobody has the CVA flask in stock that I want but SFRC will order one for me. Two weeks, so that will work out fine. I've waited 9 1/2 weeks for the transfer to go through and the revolver is still in the mail from Wolverine so a few more days waiting will be no problem. Thanks for all the ideas guys, I'll either use one of my Lee dippers or a .38 Spl case until my flask shows up.

It's a .36cal (should have stated that in the Op). There is lots of differences of opinion on a powder charge for this gun. Pietta recommends 9-12 Grains of (3f) and a maximum of either 22 Grains or 1,42 Grams of (3f). One video shows the results of 15 Grain, 18 Grain and 21 Grain loads of FFFg. I'm thinking I'll try a few at 10 grains just to see how that works but assuming that 15 grains would be my target load until I get more experience on it. I agree with BCRider that 20 grains might be a bit stout.
 
A good site to visit that may answer a lot of your questions is: duelist1954. Host Mike Beliveau is the Black Powder Editor of: 'Guns of the Old West' magazine. The site features numerous videos dealing with cap and ball revolvers, including loading basics, etc. Pretty sure there will be something there of use to you. Definitely worth a look.

Other sources for blackpowder accessories, including flasks: Track of the Wolf...and Dixie Gun Works. U.S. based, but ship to Canada.
 
I have a 51 brass frame 36 cal. Was using 15 grains and the last time I shot it I tried 10 grains with some cornmeal on top of the powder( 3f ). It worked very will and shot close to poa. Will keep using the 10 grains, only shooting paper.
 
Look to "track of the wolf". They still ship most things to Canada.

I have to agree with others 20gr in a 36 may be more than it can hold.
I would start with 15 and work my way up.
For reference I have had two different 36 cal revolvers. Both were loaded with 15gr of 3F.

My ROAs have all maxed out at 30grs of 3 F. But I prefer 25 grs for accuracy.
 
tokguy said:
They have lots of stuff...J**n is pretty unlike-able IMO.
I use Becky at Hillfolk Musket in Sask...she is pretty awesome. I try to stay away from Marstar on general principle...every now and again they get a bit of money from me though.
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I've only had good interactions with Marstar. They were more than accommodating and kind to talk to on the phone. I understand they have a storied history and maybe this wasn't always true, but as of this month and this year, I was impressed and will buy from them again.
 
Ok, another update. As the Ontario CFO has graciously given me 8 1/2 weeks to approve the transfer and CP threw in another 10 days I had lots of time to get info and track down supplies I needed.

Mike Beliveau and his videos on duelist1954 were a great help. I went to Track of the Wolf and got their NW-140 nipple wrench and it fit and worked perfectly. Also got their NW-130 nipple wrench as it has a narrower base for restricted nipple access. Didn't need the 130 for my 1851 Navy but it would be needed for the 1858 New Army revolver so might have to get one to use the wrench ;). Also got some Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads from them as well and that takes the place of home made lube and they work well.

Ordered a field flask from SFRC but in the mean time, used a Lee dipper and the funnel tray from my RCBS powder scale to measure out 15 grains of Goex 3F. Worked out to be a reasonable load as the groupings were consistent and the recoil quite low. All shots were about 4" high at 25 yards but that could have been me. No dealers around had .375" round lead balls so Chesher's Sports in Belleville ordered some from Hornady. Again no local dealers stocked Remington #10 percussion caps so my daughter in Barrie picked some up for me.

I found this a very enjoyable revolver to shoot and certainly pleased with it. The trigger is one on the nicest I have run across and quite surprised as it is a very inexpensive revolver. The cleanup with very hot water for barrel and cylinder was easy and G96 for the rest of the gun. As a bonus, my 9mm pistol brass brush and felt swab fits the barrel perfectly.

Looks like I'm hooked and might be interested in getting an original Colt in Antique status in the future. Thanks guys, for all the tips that showed up in this thread.
 
bush1: It isn't you! Most C & B revolvers will print their shots high. It is a design feature built into original Colt revolvers, which still remains today. Sights on these revolvers were commonly regulated to upwards of 75 yards. This, to achieve maximum combat effectiveness of the arm, on human-sized targets.

A modern parallel: The practice of sighting in a hunting rifle for 'point blank aim'. When sighted this way, the rifle will place its shots in the kill zone of a game animal out to extended ranges, without changing the aiming point. The same principle applies with these revolvers.

To make the revolver shoot to point of aim at your chosen distance, you either have to replace the front sight (with a taller one), then file it to hit where you want it. Or, file the notch deeper in the hammer, to achieve the same result: lower bullet point of impact. Both duelist1954 and Blackie Thomas explain how they achieve this, in some detail. The videos will be found on their sites.
 
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I have a pietta 1851-.44- steel frame, and the booklet said the same thing 15 grains, which seemed low compared to everything I read on line! Perhaps Pietta puts that in as a CYA deal! I will start at 20 grains and work up to most accurate but not above 30! Thanks for the info folks!

EDIT: I got the 1851 New on a good deal, but my favourite is the 1858 Remington and the cartridge conversion, also the 1875 Remington cartridge version. Just like the look!
 
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