Black Rifle Optics...

KevinB

Industry Expert
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I took this from a review I wrote pre 9/11 and have made updates where necessary.

Some 16 years after I was issued my first M16-style weapon (the C7), I have owned numerous models and been issued a couple of different ones. I have fallen in love with the flattop uppers. The added versatility that they provide runs roughshod over any perceived lack of durability. The change is most notable from the A1 sights on the original C7 rifles where a 300m zero was used (and the shooter had to hold for variations in range). While the A1's were rugged they required knowledge of bullet drop, and even then the iron sight covered the target at 500m.
With the advent of the C7A1, the flattop, and ELCAN, a new model of infantry combat had been unleashed. The initial ELCAN's sucked, pure and simple. They broke, you could not jump them, and they never held a zero - even from a 16KM Ruckmarch. Range scores went up (provided your scope was not N/S), so the brass was happy, but combat utility went down.

After several fratricide issues on live fire platoon and company attacks, it was noticed that the scope caused nasty tunnel vision. The Brits have noticed this with their SUSAT equipped SA-80's as well. I do not intend to answer the question of whether iron or optic is the best for combat use; my objective is simply to provide a run-down on various sights and how, IMHO, they stack up against each other.

On the red dots, I really like the idea of using both eyes - and if weather or mud/dirt obscures the optic face, you can still see the target and the dot superimposed upon it. They are extremely quick for ambush/CQB. The magnified optics give a lot of power to the lowly infantryman. Now each soldier can search terrain to a far greater range than with the naked eye. For advance to contact, it makes spotting potential enemy positions easier and more likely at a greater range. For target indication, the magnified optic also gives the platoon/section commander a better tool. Both have their uses; some overlap and some do not. [/quote]


Trijicon RX01NSN (Reflex)
The most compact of the sights tested, the Reflex, seems to have a love-it-or-leave-it following. The tritium light source provides battery-free operation and day/night hands-free operability. The yellow dot is easily picked out under most conditions, and the polarizing filter (included, but optional for use) can be tuned to achieve the best contrast against the target background. The 1/2 MOA click adjustments are made with an Allen key (slot would have been preferred), and are very positive.

The mount and sight body are fairly rugged. The hood on the Reflex is larger than most “heads-up" sights, which gives better protection to the fragile lens than the others. The hood also provides great protection from foreign matter on the dot reflective surface. There were some worries that the dot would be visible to the intended target, but that proved to be a non-issue. Accuracy was fairly good: 4" @ 100m out of a Colt M4A1, likely due to the way the dot clearly contrasted against the target and an aiming mark could be repeated.

The Reflex is compatible with both head- and weapon-mounted PVS-14's, giving day/night immediate readiness in either format. The Reflex is also compatible with the various bolt-on iron flip-up sights, and did not compromise their use. The lens cover provides a sacrificial window so that dirt, mud, and such can be quickly wiped off without damage to the lens proper (but you really don't need to). The body in no way obscured the FOV.
No nasty electronics to corrode and a nice, fast dot.
The only problem was the requirement to adjust the polarizing filter repeatedly in different lighting conditions as the dot would ghost against certain backgrounds - this is definitely a concern however it has been liekn to adjusting the brightness of a EOTECH or AIMPOINT, I'm not sure if I buy that - but some who have them still enjoy them (they where pulled out of the SOPMOD kit for the Aimpoint [and in certain unit the EOTECH])


CMORE Tactical

This sight got the greatest amount of WTF? from observers. The idea is quite solid: a red dot heads-up sight with rear A2 irons for back-up and long range. It also has a great LCF (Look Cool Factor). The front lens is a shiny reflective material (can you see me?), as most red dot sights tend to be. However, there are problems in the heads-up lens and its adjustments.

First, the adjustments are WAG - no clicks, just sort of spin-the-wheel-and-see-where-it-goes. Hence, this sight took an unusually long time to zero. Simply put: unacceptable. This may be OK to some IPSC Race Puke, but it is criminal on a duty sight.Second, the hood is made of polymer and is fairly thin. Thus, it provides little impact protection - and the hood piece is the adjustable part! A further question arose from this model having twelve different settings: two for NV and 10 for day/night unaided use. This could be well and good, but since it is formed from the base of a Colt Carry Handle, were does the NV go? There is no room for a weapon mount, and the head-mounted PVS-14 will not allow for any eye relief. Worse yet, despite the fact that the Reflex and Aimpoint had no detectible parallax, the C-More thrives on it: an easy 5" on all sides at 100m. If one looks through the irons (slower, and why the dot?) then one can eliminate the problem; so could several hundred hours of drills on this sight, but why? If I were forced to use this sight, I would epoxy it heavily once zeroed and never take it off the gun.

Last, but not least, the battery compartment is not easy to get to while the sight is mounted. For those who watched Survivors (I think) with Robin Williams, remember the scene were he is out of bullets for one gun and is asking the hitman to let him go back and get the right one? That is the scenario I think of with this sight. “Oh! Please, I need to replace my batteries. Just one minute while I remove my sight." A big Kevin of the GWN thumbs DOWN. Oh, and I have one to sell. I was purposely tardy with this review in hopes of selling it before the review came out.

This sight could have been very impressive, but was constructed to fail for reasons unknown. I would recommend to C-More that they install a click adjustment for W&A as well as mount the hood in the same manner as the Reflex rather than a front pivot. C-More, if you are listening, you can fix it to be pretty good.


Aimpoint Comp M

Since the US Army adopted this unit (80,000 orders then - now TONS), I was expecting a large, bulky, monstrous tube. However, the Aimpoint is quite compact and very handy. I like the GG&G cantilever mount (now I liek the Larue :wink: ), and the extra battery compartment is nice (especially for those who go out and turn the sight on only to see nothing happen). And, the mount can put the Aimpoint right in line for the PVS-14. (no longer a big plus with me)

The corded weather caps for the windage and elevation adjustments where also a handy feature. Numb hands are a little clumsy, and it is very handy to not have to go fishing for things you dropped because your hands are like wood. The 1/2 MOA adjustments were not quite as positive as the Trijicon's, and the labeling confused me (Infantry 031, Duuh!). I found I had to crank the dot setting up near the max to see it during some daylight conditions, but that is why they have multiple settings. Accuracy with the 3 MOA dot was comparable to the Reflex and C-More. [/quote]

The Aimpoint is quite compatible with flip-up rear irons, and makes for a good short- to medium-range sight, but the 3MOA dot precludes its use at ranges much beyond 300m. Due as well to its 1x lack of magnification it is a poor system for tgt detection/discrimination. For this reason alone I would be hesitant to place it on a general-use combat weapon.

The M2 and M3 are refinements in design and I did not think need their own seperate chapter.


C79 Elcan
This is the battle sight for the Canadian Army. It is mounted onto the C7A1 and C9A1 (M249) [now C7A2 and C9A2] (BTW what sort of pinhead puts optics on an area weapon? - plus, the added shaking!). The Elcan has suffered through a long line of teething problems. While the optics (3.4X) are top-notch, the mount has issues. I broke a few during my service with the CF, and once returned with only the mount (the Elcan had departed for parts unknown - and no, I did not steal it!).

The system mounts fairly high because the ballistic cam/range dial on the sight is hinged at the front, where it is windage adjustable in 1 MOA increments. The rear elevation dial is also adjustable in 1 MOA clicks. This rotating hinge gives two points of contact with the second (the range dial) being the weak link. Any rearward impact is transferred right onto the range dial, leaving the scope flopping up and down, only connected by the windage pin. The fourth generation modifications to the mount (which the CF just recently subscribed to C79A2) eliminate the majority of the problem of zero loss and other mount-related problems, or at least delay them longer than the early gens. Even so, I personally feel that the mount is too subject to impacts and not strong enough for the role it is intended.

The optic is a great combination/compromise for both close- and longer-range shooting, though. The tritium triangle on the post is quick to pick up, especially in low light, and yet is still fine enough at the tip to provide a clear aiming reference at longer ranges. The range dial is calibrated(ish) for the C77 (SS109) ball round out of the 20" C7 barrel to 800m. The Elcan is not NV compatible, nor does it have to be (for its intended role). The tritium light source provides a good reference to aim at muzzle flashes, and the scope gathers a great deal of light on its own.

In any field environment, the scope naturally sees its share of the field - causing it to become covered in mud, etc. This has to be removed or the scope is useless; and unlike iron sights where one can simply shake the dirt/mud off, the optics typically have to be washed out.

The Elcan is not really compatible with any of the typical flip-up sights. It is too long and most shooters needs to mount it near the rear of the receiver. (When I used one I pushed it forward and mounted a BIS - but I think I was relatively unique) Diemaco has produced a back-up sight for use on the C7A1 that mounts forward of the ELCAN, but it is constructed with a plastic body that is more flimsy than the C79 itself. I don't see much point in a back-up that, IMHO, will self-destruct long before the sight.

Trijicon TA01NSN

This was by far the most rugged of all the optics then tested. I dropped my M4A1 with ACOG from 6' to the ground, and then went out and took top score shooting the C7 PWT. The crosshair is extremely fine for a combat sight, so it is extremely good for longer-range work. The sight is calibrated for the M855 (SS109) round from the 14.5" M4 barrel. The bullet drop calibrations are right on the crosshair, which leaves no external adjustments for range. Windage and elevation are adjusted with 1/3 MOA clicks, and the adjustments are quite positive and easily made. Weather caps cover the screws when not needed. This forces the shooter to aim off for windage, for better or worse.

As far as low light work goes, the center of the crosshair glows amber/white at night and provides great contrast for aiming. However in certain near dark dusk conditions the amber/white tritium merges with the black reticle and forms a uniform shade of greay the same colour as the surroundings - not good.

The other issue, which it shares with any conventional optic, is inclement weather performance. The optics can become covered in water during rain, obscuring the reticle and target. This does not happen with the dot sights, as one's eyes simply superimpose the dot on the target seen by the other eye. Also, the rear of the optic tends to frost over with ones breath during cold weather ops, especially if one is exerting oneself heavily

Another nice point about the ACOG is that it mates very nicely with an assortment of flip-up rear sights. These cannot be flipped up while the ACOG is attached, but the ACOG can be removed/flung/cursed/etc. if one suffers a catastrophic failure.
The crosshair is very ungainly to work with in close quarter battle because it takes too much time to pick up. For automatic fire, or shooting on the move it is quite distracting to see the crosshair jump about and it is very easily lost while doing this. That is one real issue with the NSN. It would make a really nice perimeter weapon for LE, though.[/quote]


EOTECH 552

We issue the EOTECH 552... :wink:

With the 552 are a 500hr battery life from a AA battery - and you can use the Lithium AA's for more and better low temp performance, and 8 hour auto shut off (for those who whine about that - nowhere are you going to leave the sight on one setting for 8 hours while using it) The EO as well has its own built in mount (so you save on cost - I think the Larue mount for it is a good investment but not necessary unless you really need that 1/10 of a sec gain for being a wee bit higher).
FOV is excellent

I think the EO 553 will be the HEAT - it was designed with feedback from CAG shooters in the US, from their issue 552's - Lithium123 batteries, taller and throw lever mount. -- IF it is ever released to the civilian market.

However the EOTECH's are still a CCO with 1x properties - they are good for CQB but lose their edge as distance increases.

Trijicon TA31/TA11 BAC ACOG Series.

Probably the best GP fixed power scopes on the market - CBQ capable due to BAC and yet with magnification and BDC properties to use at range. Same principles as the TA01NSN - but with the Bindon Aimng Concept - using a permanently lit (trituim and fibre optic) reticle for two eyes open aiming as a CCO. Users will notice a POI/POA shift while using them in the BAC mode do to how the brain processes the visual data - exactly how much is dependant upon the individual. The TA31 series replaced the TA01NSN in the SOPMOD package and has been adopted by the US Army and USMC as rifle and carbine optics.


___________________________________________________________

Variable Power Combat Optics to Follow
 
This came off a AR15.com thread it was aimed at novice AR users in the USA - but I think it may help here.

KevinB said:
I disagree on Jeff's comments on the Optic - I see why he recommends Irons, but IF you wake up and are slightly sleep ####ed a red dot will be your best option. Reddots allows for aiming in the same plane - place dot, pull trigger while irons require you to align two planes (front sight post and rear aperature) and superimpose them on your target this can be awkward understress for people who have not had a long and deep foundation in training with those sights - so get a Aimpoint or Eotech. For myself, since I cant keep any of my firearms readied or in the open (Canadian Gun Laws) I have a Glock in a fingerprint safe by the bed. My AR's are in my gunsafe in the next room. In either event I still have to chamber a round from either pistol or AR - so I am not too worried about the noise from a red dot sight, turning it on or adjusting it to the ambient lighting level.

I think the begining AR shooter should learn irons - while they are more
awkward to learn it does give a good framework, and best can be learned in a relaxed framework - suck as a NRA rifle workshop for hi-power/service rifle. These sorts of workshops will give the novice AR a foundation into the mechanics of his/her rifle/carbine. Once familiar with the basic on can move on and take a more tactical orientated course and do so with a basic grasp of how the weapon operates and is then able to absorb the knowledge and apply it that much easier.

Whether or not the shooter does irons or optics in a tactical course (or at
least the first course) Personally I would say it was a good idea, but that
is with the understanding that the shooter will take more courses and
training and constantly seek to evolve. Given that most shooters will not
even take tactical training before deciding upon a defensive weapon, I dont see many taking courses two times a year. In that end state I think that the shooter should come 'ready to play' for his/her course - Light and
Optic. Worst case the shooter will learn that their setup is not ideal or
impractical and they can (hopefully) tryout other setups, but in this day
and age where google is your friend is is easy to quickly search out some
basic opinions on workable systems.

Lastly these are my personal thoughts, I cannot guarantee them since none of this applies to my situation, I had the benifit of an Army education for firearms and training, seeking out training in the civilian sector years after I first got started. This is basically what my advice would be to a friend, since as Jeff alluded to previously the needs/wants of my rifles are different that that of the Home Defence shooter. My girlfriend is a reserve medic, three reasons why she should seek outside training; I despise teaching loved ones, so the fact she is my GF makes it a bad idea for me to teach. Reserevists..., typically (at least in Canada) I dont consider the basic regular force weapons training to be sufficient, and the reserves are much worse off. Medics - bah they seem allergic to weapons training.



---
Paul that was a brief overview of what I wrote - the original was much more
long winded. I did not both posting it as after typing it out (and for me a
first) and proof reading it, I did no think it added a lot - so I chucked in
my two points for re-emphasis and a light hearted comment...

Cant go wrong with Larue...


Cheers

Kevin



Just my humble $0.02

and one more gem

Key points if you shoot at all while moving or think it is possible - get a CCO - and ALWAYS have a light.
 
I agree with Kevin on the TA31 as one of the best fixed power GP scope. The BAC two eyes open design takes a little bit to get used to for short range work, provide my brain works properly that day and don't get confused by my sight picture. It takes a lot of practice to make it a second nature.

The only complain I have is the fiber optics light enhancement under a bright sunner day; GT and I both found the BAC becomes too bright, making it hard to see the target properly. GT did a quick fix by putting velcro stripe on top of the tube so he can adjust the amount of light coming in.

Excellent Read. Thanks Kev.
 
Okay and on to magnified optics...

Perhaps the best method is to read Larry Vickers on the S&B Short Dot
It will give the background to the rationale for the developement.

I am re-writing a blub on 6 optics I have tried -just being lazy on it.
Larry Vickers said:
At the request of my friend Dave Pennington I am filling in the blanks on the history and development of the Schmidt & Bender CQB Short Dot 1.1 - 4 x 20 scope. I hope this answers some questions about the details of this optic.

A need for a milspec low powered variable optic came up after Somalia in 1993. Bad guys mixed with civilians were sticking their heads around corners 100 meters or farther down an alley or street in order to gain SA on the whereabouts of US forces operating in that area. The Aimpoint setup being used at that time did not provide any ability for target discrimination. This was a real problem for those GI's posted outside for external target security.

A market search was done and at that time the closest thing that could be found was a scope called a microdot ; a 1.5 - 4 powered optic that had a red dot like a reflex sight. These were used for quite awhile and served well considering they were a scope made for civilian non milspec activities; sport shooting, hunting, etc. Shortly after these were fielded a major US scope company was approached about making a more milspec 1 - 3 or 1 - 4 powered optic with a red dot capablility. This particular company makes milspec scopes but was (and still is) primarily a hunting/sporting scope company that has historically put little effort into the military/LE side of things - and was way behind the power curve on illuminated reticles or dots in scopes. After a couple years a prototype was seen that had alot of promise but still no red dot. It had other features also that were not applicable and after some T&E it went back to the factory with a list of things to change/enhance.

A few more years pass with no sign of a gen II version when a phone call is received saying the scope is ready with good news and bad news; They are in production and can be received ASAP but you take what you get - no changes. This was not received well as the concept of this scope was brought to the attention of this company and it was finalized with no further input except for a T&E prototype years before. Once the final production sample showed up and was virtually the same as the prototype, flaws and all, except with a poorly executed illuminated reticle/dot, the die was cast - other vendors were going to be solicited for product. To say we were disappointed in this scope would be an understatement.

All the major scope makers were approached with none being interested in helping us except for Schmidt & Bender. I had a S&B scope, knew of their reputation, and had heard they were very responsive to user needs. I also knew they made a scope called a 1.25 - 4 x 20 flashdot. After meeting with the CEO Hans Bender we decided the best approach was to modify the flashdot to suit our needs. A list of specs was draw up by me and presented to Hans. They were;

1) 1 - 4 x 20

2) external adjustments in 1/2 moa elevation and windage

3) BDC cams for green tip, 75 gr Hornady, and M118LR for 16 and 20 inch barrel SR 25's

4) Detents between the red dot brightness adjustments to allow the user to place the dot off between settings

5) Make the first few settings for NVG use then day light use for the settings after that

6) Shorten the scope as much as possible

7) Install the then new Zenith short throw variable power ring

8) keep the dot size of the flashdot - approx 5.5 moa

In a little over 1 month S&B had a prototype ready for me that was approx 80% of the gen I short dot we know today. Additional testing and refinement occurred and approx 1 year after my initial contact with S&B a contract was let for several hundred gen I CQB short dot scopes as it was now called. The final specs were as above with the following tweaks;

1) the first 6 settings are for NVG use

2) a 6-8 hr battery shut off

3) A 'skeletonized' mil dot reticle which means on 4 power it can be used as a typical mildot reticle but on 1.1 power it will virtually disappear allowing the eye to pick up the dot quicker. The downside to this is with no red dot on it can be hard to see on 1.1 power.

The minimum power setting was 1.1 due to the fact that the original flashdot was designed to be a 1.25 power - when you made it a 1 power it actually had a slight ghost image (the inside of the tube at the objective end) when your eye got closer than normal for proper eye relief. 1.1 power made this go away with very little to no difference for up close reflex work. Also it is worthy to note that the reticle is in the first focal plane which means it grows in direct proportion to the target; in the real world this means you can mil dot at any power setting. Also it means your zero cannot shift during magnification as the reticle is not moving. Despite what anyone else may tell you I believe this is critical for a milspec variable powered optic. Of equal note, the Short Dot is also extremely forgiving in the areas of eye relief and eye positioning compared to other magnified optics.

The Gen II Short Dot came about when some users complained about accidently turning the external adjustment knobs during vigorous activities. In hind sight I wish I would have had the gen I prototype made with a feature S&B offers for their hunting scopes; a low profile windage adjustment cover that houses a spare battery. The external click adjustments would go away but to me thay are not a must have and a spare battery would be better. This may have prevented the gen II development also as the windage adjustment is much more prone to accidental adjustment. Live and learn.

The gen II Short Dot has only 2 BDC's - green tip and M118LR. The knobs are larger also. The key difference is they are spring loaded and are locked into position when in the 'down' position and in order to adjust them you pull up all the way and adjust - release and they will spring back into the locked position. Very slick.

The end result is a scope that is without peer on the market today. It is rather large and heavy (particularly compared to an Aimpoint) but offers features no other scope has; as far as I know the NVG intensity adjustments, the auto battery shut off and the new gen II locking turrets are found no other scope on the market. Another very unique feature that end users like is the intensity adjustments and the ability to turn 'off' the dot with one click, and turn the dot 'on' to your preferred intensity with one click. Dispite the integration of cutting edge technology for a scope, problems have been very few (we all know about man made items) and S&B is very responsive when a problem arises.

What I find is if someone has the scope on their rifle they love it; they have committed to it and have decided the features it provides are ones that appeal to them and their needs. If there is a better general purpose rifle optic in the world today I don't know what it is.

I will close this out plugging Schmidt & Bender and Larue Tactical. I now have 5 S&B scopes with a 6th on the way. In my opinion Schmidt & Bender makes the absolute best scopes that money can buy. PERIOD. No scope company is more responsive to user needs and the quality of the optics and execution is superb. They are very simply the finest. They are not cheap but the best never is; you get what you pay for. Experience has taught me there are very few exceptions to that rule; even less than most people think.

Mark Larue is a friend of mine and as we know his mounts have completely taken over the tactical market - he was the first on the market with a mount for the S&B short dot and after a couple minor tweaks his mount is THE way to go not only on the short dot but on any other combat optic. Larue gets my vote - his stuff is top of the line.

I hope this clarifys some things reference the short dot. Enjoy.

Cheers

Larry Vickers
 
As a distributor for EOTech I have been pestering them regarding the 553 series... All I can say now is, "don't hold your breath"...

No civy sales in the horizon. It may take months before we even see a distributor sample.

JR
 
TSE JR said:
As a distributor for EOTech I have been pestering them regarding the 553 series... All I can say now is, "don't hold your breath"...

No civy sales in the horizon. It may take months before we even see a distributor sample.

JR

Is that becasue the military order is so big or they don't want civies to own?
 
MPI said:
TSE JR said:
As a distributor for EOTech I have been pestering them regarding the 553 series... All I can say now is, "don't hold your breath"...

No civy sales in the horizon. It may take months before we even see a distributor sample.

JR

Is that becasue the military order is so big or they don't want civies to own?

It'll take a long time to catch up with Mil/LE orders. It's not a slight at all. The guys at EOTech are good people.

JR
 
TSE JR said:
MPI said:
TSE JR said:
As a distributor for EOTech I have been pestering them regarding the 553 series... All I can say now is, "don't hold your breath"...

No civy sales in the horizon. It may take months before we even see a distributor sample.

JR

Is that becasue the military order is so big or they don't want civies to own?

It'll take a long time to catch up with Mil/LE orders. It's not a slight at all. The guys at EOTech are good people.

JR

Damn wars always messing with my fun. :evil: :wink:
 
Hey, nice to see a detailed post on optics and their pratical uses. Read it all!

I am a total F'n noob when it comes to optics and have no intent on hi-jacking this thread, however it seems like a good thread to ask about optics related to the recreational black rifle shooter also...

Kev B, of the optics you are aware of - which would probably be the mfg for me - a guy whos has plenty of time to zero it in?

I supposedly have 2 MOA gun with my AR-180B, the web indicates it can shoot .75" groups at 100 yards - at best - does the MOA statement factor in with scope MOA adjustments? - you mention scope MOA in your terminology... (question one)

Also I want a Red Dot - and I want some degree of magnification. Am I going down the wrong path? Is my accuracy hampered by low mag red dots? should I be going higher mag reg. scopes?

The c More definitely has that LCF factor - I am not sure they come magnified. I hope I am wrong - more web research required 8)

For someone like myself - purely recreational, no speed matches... no middle east conflicts, just gophers & coyotes and other varmints I encounter when cruisin the wilderness on my quad, which optic suits me best and keeps my rifle's LCF factor on top?

fed007
 
fed007 said:
Kev B, of the optics you are aware of - which would probably be the mfg for me - a guy whos has plenty of time to zero it in?

I supposedly have 2 MOA gun with my AR-180B, the web indicates it can shoot .75" groups at 100 yards - at best - does the MOA statement factor in with scope MOA adjustments? - you mention scope MOA in your terminology... (question one)

Also I want a Red Dot - and I want some degree of magnification. Am I going down the wrong path? Is my accuracy hampered by low mag red dots? should I be going higher mag reg. scopes?

The c More definitely has that LCF factor - I am not sure they come magnified. I hope I am wrong - more web research required 8)

fed007

2MOA will equal aprox 2" at 100yds/M - (IIRC 1MOA = 1.047" @ 100yards)

So with a 2MOAgun if you add in the ammo and shooter variables - anthing under a 2" groups is outstanding shooting.

Given that spending big $ is not really practical

Your budget will really limit the scope choice -

Leupold: Vari XII's woudl be a good choice from a reputable manufacturer - if want an illumionated reticle then the price is going up and the MkIV MR/T 1.5-5 is a good choice.

C-More - had a variable scope they designed for USSOC - but it appears to have fallen on deaf ears and is not offered for civilian sale. With my disappointments on C More systems - I would never recommend them.

Aimpoint and EOTECH have attachable magnifiers that can be used to boost those from single CQB sights to a more capable general purpose platform - thought they are somewhat awkward.

IOR 1.1x4 - I have not seen many of these in Canada, but those what have them seem to like them. They are about $750...


I have a buy cheap buy twice mindset, as I have seen too many low prices budget optics fail even on low durability required shoots.



Secondly the mount that is used is a very big part and cheaping out on a mount can make even a big buck scope worthless...
 
Kevin, what about Elcan's M 145? It "appears" to have a better mount than the original. Nice ranging reticle too. Had any experience with this one ?
 
Koldt has one.

I talked to some US SF guys - they cannot stand them - the only difference in the mount is that it has the "picatinny clicker" so it cannot be over torqued. It still has the same problems with the fragiel mount.

USSOC pers have made comments that an ACOG only belongs on a MG, that they they dont feel they shoudl be on carbines -- and that the M145 definetely does not belong on any weapons system.

I have no experience with it - other than the bad taste in my mouth from the C79 and C79A2.
 
Well I have an E 145 on my PE 90 and it works just fine. I've put nearly 50 rounds through this baby during the last couple of years and opened and closed the lid on my rifle case, "quite firmly at times", on many occasions,,narry a problem,,so there! :lol:
 
Kevin, Leupold Mark4 series and Nightforce were the "in" scopes until the S&B came too light. What are your thoughts on the MR/T LR/T and NXS line of scopes? This with the perspective of using them on an SPR type AR-15 or boltgun rig out to 800m.
 
I have had both Leupold and NightForce on my AR's.

I like them however.

Dislikes:
NightForce - reticle is not illuminated enough to make quick acquisition in sunlight.
- No zero stop or other means to ensure Zero is Zero.
- suprisingly short battery life even when off.

Leupold - reticle - Premier Reticles 2nd Gen mildot (1st Focal Plane) not available in illuminated.



DARKSTANG - depends what style of shooting you do - if its benchrest style stuff or more action oreintated.

The stuff I have put up is more geared towards duty usage, with "action rifle" a second.
 
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