BLO, LO and Evaporust questions

vinver

vinver

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Reading over some threads on restoration, I have some questions on the restoration liquids mentioned-
1. What's the difference between Raw Linseed oil and Boiled Linseed oil, and when do you choose one over the other?
2. Evaporust- I've read about it, seen it in the auto section at Canadian Tire, and wondering how it affects the surface, finishes and what to do after treating the metal parts with it?
Any help by those with experience with these please post your comments, thanks,
Vincent
 
Naval Jelly is another rust removal chemical. Just be aware that blueing is a form of "rust" and some products will remove the blueing at the same time as they remove the rust.

Rust is formed where the base iron joins with oxygen in the air to form iron oxide. When the products mentioned here as well as others remove this rust they take the iron that was leached out of hte surface with them. THis leaves pits behind. Sadly there's no way to take out the oxygen and re-deposit the iron back onto the surface. So pitting is a fact of life with rusty guns.

and the oil difference has already been covered. The key for authenticity is to use the one which was specified by the original maker's or army's maintanence notes.
 
Most BLO have additives to speed drying time. You need to be aware of them in case you are looking to go all original. Personally I use a bland of BLO, tung and a small amt of varsol.

As for evaporust, well it's another tool to use in restoring a rifle or part. The bluing will be removed when you use it. The metal turns a grey-ish/ grey black, you can wire wheel it to a brushed look for wipe with 000 steel wool. It will remove regular rust and leave the pits behind.

As for Navel Jelly, I was curious about this too.

Wiki: Rust removal
Phosphoric acid may be used as a "rust converter", by direct application to rusted iron, steel tools, or surfaces. The phosphoric acid converts reddish-brown iron(III) oxide, Fe2O3 (rust) to black ferric phosphate, FePO4.
"Rust converter" is sometimes a greenish liquid suitable for dipping (in the same sort of acid bath as is used for pickling metal), but it is more often formulated as a gel, commonly called naval jelly. It is sometimes sold under other names, such as "rust remover" or "rust killer". As a thick gel, it may be applied to sloping, vertical, or even overhead surfaces.
After treatment, the black ferric-phosphate coating can be scrubbed off, leaving a fresh metal surface. Multiple applications of phosphoric acid may be required to remove all rust. The black phosphate coating can also be left in place, where it will provide moderate further corrosion resistance (such protection is also provided by the superficially similar Parkerizing and blued electrochemical conversion coating processes).

I'm going to get some now and try this on some old tools.
 
The British Enfield and American 03 Springfield, M1 Garand and M14 had raw linseed oil applied, discounting a short period during WWII when Tung oil was also used.

These stocks were hot dipped in a tank of raw linseed oil when made and re-oiled as needed with raw linseed oil, Raw linseed oil will penetrate deeper into the wood because of its slower drying time.

At no time during their military service was BLO applied, and BLO is used by impatient people who want fast drying times. Raw linseed oil helps keep the stock from shrinking and keeps the wood hydrated. In plain English raw linseed oil is for "internal" protection of the wood, keeping the wood stable and not for keeping the surface of the wood nice looking.

Before WWII the stocks were re-oiled once per year by the armourers during the yearly complete tear down inspection of the rifle. After Dunkirk the Enfields were only torn down as needed for repairs and the troops oiled their own rifles once per month.

Below, the Enfield rifles were only to be disassembled as needed for repairs and the yearly tear down inspections were canceled. During the yearly inspections everything below the wood line was covered with mineral jelly (Vaseline) It therefore was decided to paint everything under the wood line instead of coating it with mineral jelly and fix or repair only as needed. (if it ain't broke don't fix it)

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NOTE: I just got back from a canoing trip in upstate New York and got to talk to a master wood canoe builder and we talked about the wood finish on these canoes. The first thing applied to a wood canoe is a 50/50 mix of raw linseed oil and turpentine. After the wood has absorbed all the raw linseed it will take then varnish is applied to seal and protect the surface. This means if air can get to the linseed oil it will not dry and it will keep the wood cellular structure from shrinking. (In lieu of the monthly stock oiling above) ;)

And just in case the Canadians don't believe an American. :D The manual below is dated March 1969

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I hate to say it but you're ascribing charactaristics to raw linseed oil that it doesn't deserve. It's actually a very poor wood finish. The only thing it has going for it is that it's cheap and very easy to keep oiling the wood to give it some degree of protection.

First off no oil really stops the wood from exchanging moisture with the air. It's simply not enough of a sealer to stop that from happening. Wood is constantly in a state of equalizing the humidity level with the air surrounding it. At best the oil, or any other finish, simply slows down the exchange of moisture. The Lee Enfields that saw considerable time in the Sahara were likely very dry and didn't fit the rifles well by the time they had been down there for a while. But that's OK because once they returned to England the wood soon picked up moisture from the air and returned to the original dimensions. That's simply what wood does. And linseed oil, "boiled" or raw, won't drastically change that simple fact.

The one big factor that I can think of for why they chose raw over boiled oil is that with re-coats the boiled linseed will over time build up a varnished like surface. And I suppose that when wet it could well be found to be slippery. On the other hand the raw linseed will never build up that same sort of film so the soldier will always have a nice grippy wood surface despite water or mud. If it gets TOO thick simply wiping away the excess will be enough to get a good grip on the stock again where a film on the wood could well still be slippery.
 
Back in the FN days we used raw linseed oil to re-condition stocks after a period in the field. I recall getting it in the big metal tins.To avoid a tacky accumulation of dried linseed on the wood surface you must rub it into the wood and then wipe off the excess. That pretty much jives with what the armourer's instructions say about Enfield stocks.
 
BCRider said:
I hate to say it but you're ascribing charactaristics to raw linseed oil that it doesn't deserve. It's actually a very poor wood finish. The only thing it has going for it is that it's cheap and very easy to keep oiling the wood to give it some degree of protection.

First off no oil really stops the wood from exchanging moisture with the air. It's simply not enough of a sealer to stop that from happening. Wood is constantly in a state of equalizing the humidity level with the air surrounding it. At best the oil, or any other finish, simply slows down the exchange of moisture. The Lee Enfields that saw considerable time in the Sahara were likely very dry and didn't fit the rifles well by the time they had been down there for a while. But that's OK because once they returned to England the wood soon picked up moisture from the air and returned to the original dimensions. That's simply what wood does. And linseed oil, "boiled" or raw, won't drastically change that simple fact.
wood
The one big factor that I can think of for why they chose raw over boiled oil is that with re-coats the boiled linseed will over time build up a varnished like surface. And I suppose that when wet it could well be found to be slippery. On the other hand the raw linseed will never build up that same sort of film so the soldier will always have a nice grippy wood surface despite water or mud. If it gets TOO thick simply wiping away the excess will be enough to get a good grip on the stock again where a film on the wood could well still be slippery.
Click to expand...

BLO dries by a chemical reaction, RLO dries by contact with air and this is why raw linseed oil was used. Raw linseed oil penetrates far deeper into the wood than BLO will. Raw linseed fills the cellular structure of the wood and helps stabilize the wood and prevents it from warping when wet. If you seal the surface of the wood with BLO it will hold moisture and rot if exposed to water. Raw linseed oil allows the stock to "breath", if you put BLO on the wood it can't exhale and holds more water. ;)

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Below a stock that was hot dipped in a tank of RAW linseed oil.

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Also if you look at the date of the information given above you will see the troops in North Africa were oiling their own stocks which prevented them from drying out.


If any of you want to talk to the senior British armourer Peter Laidler on this subject you can PM him at Milsurps.com and get the straight scoop on raw linseed oil. ;)

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Our forefather may have been cheap but they weren't stupid. ;)
 
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I don't doubt that the old army types chose raw linseed as a rifle finish for a lot of good and valid reasons. But there is not the big gap in film and water resistance that you seem to surmize between the raw and boiled linseed finishes.

Besides it's not like the BLO will not soak into the wood as well. They are both simply oil when they are not dried. If the two are at the same viscocity in a tank and stocks are lowered into the oil they will both soak in the same amount and stabilize the grain to equal amounts. It's simply that the BLO dries sooner where RLO takes literally weeks or even months to get to the same state.

But niether of them will prevent the wood from accepting or giving off moisture at the same time. BLO vs raw may build a film on the surface more quickly. But that film still "breathes". It's just that the film breathes a little slower than a raw oil surface. It'll slow down the process but the wood will still exchange moisture to suit the climate. And when that happens the dimensions change a little across the grain but not along the length of the grain. This is very standard wood working 101. And there's not an oil used for wood finishing that changes this.

It would be interesting to see the reasoning for the rifles being done in raw oil in the first place. But I suspect it's the nature of the grip of the wood when finished in raw oil that has much to do with the original decision. This and the fact that it's a super easy finish to maintain.
 
BCRider

Real actual boiled linseed oil is thicker, the heating of the oil causes the oil to form long molecular chains and plasticizes the oil and bonds it together. Boiled linseed oil is used as a surface treatment and does not penetrate as deeply as raw linseed oil.

BLO is not the same viscosity as raw linseed anymore than 10 weight motor oil is to 30 weight motor oil.

If you heat BLO in a tank you will soon have have linseed oil the consistency of Jell-O.

As I stated before our ancestors may have been cheap but they were not stupid.

Again if you have any questions why raw linseed oil was used contact Mr. Peter Laidler the Senior Armourer in the British military who actually worked on the Enfield rifle.
 
I do not care what you decide to put on your stocks, bear fat, whale blubber or 30 coats of polyurethane. All I'm really trying to do is set the record straight, BLO was never applied to military issued small arms.

Below on the left BLO was applied to this 1950 Mk.2 Enfield stock, on the right is a untouched No.1 Mk III* overhauled in 1953 and only raw linseed oil was applied. Now which rifle do you want to carry in combat that wont give your position away and make the Germans think you bought your rifle in a French bordello from a pimp.

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And remember when refinishing your stock you must sand with the grain using the lightest of pressure from your belt sander. :eek:

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All you need to do to get rid of the BLO 'shine' is take some FFFF steel wool and rub everything down. Then take a piece of flannel and give everything another vigourous rub. It will yield a finish that is like the one you have pictured on the left.

Oh and BTW, I have read over at milsurps.com that while RLO was prefered, if BLO was all that was at hand it could be used.

EDIT Plus during the war, the stocks wouldn't stay shiny and pretty very long. A day or two with sweaty, dirty and possibly bloody hands dragging the rifle through the mud and water of a ditch or canal or polder (google it), and soon it takes on a matte battle finish.
 
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There was an old soldiers game in the inter-war US Army where some of the troops kept 2 sets of M1903 Springfield wood, one for the field and the second for parades/inspections. The "inspection" stock would be carefully "boned" with a toothbrush handle to close the grain and then lovingly hand rubbed with successive coats of linseed until it shone like "a whore's belly on Christmas Eve", as the saying went.

We used to see the same sort of barracks chickensh$t where guys would spitshine their FN bayo scabbards and mags with black Kiwi to produce a thing of beauty and a joy to behold on the parade square. This went hand in hand with web belts buffed with neutral Kiwi until they gleamed and bush pants so heavily starched that you chinned yourself in the doorway and had a buddy slip them on so you wouldn't break the crease. The troops don't do that anymore.
 
You may well be right about the original old BLO. But the stuff they sell these days with chemical driers is very close to the same consistency as RLO. I guess a lot depends on the transition time from the old true boiled LO and the modern thin stuff with driers added.

But back in the day the BLO would have actually BEEN boiled and likely would have been as thick as you say. So yeah, in it's pure unthinned form it would not have soaked in as deeply as the RLO.

I must confess that I was thinking in terms of today's products and not what would have been around late in the 19th and early in the 20th century when the standard for the finish was originally set.
 
Thanks for the tips,

So what I've learned is:
If I want my wood furniture to look like a Shiny Whore's belly on Christmas eve in a French Bordello, use the Boiled linseed oil, If I want it to look like it's been dragged through a flooded Dutch Polder in 1944, use the raw linseed oil.
And apply it by candlelight nightly for a week, weekly for a year, monthly for 10 years, then yearly until we are all dead :sniper:
Then hope the next generation is still around to continue the care and maintenance.
Vince
 
Don't tell anyone this is a secret, but on my shooters

I apply several coats of raw linseed 50/50 with turpentine.................

And then then a few days later I apply Minwax antique Tung oil finish to seal the surface of the wood.

It nothing more than a dull looking wiping vanish that doesn't have any Tung oil in it. :eek:
 
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