Bolt action rapid fire at 300 meters

The last time we were at the range I had my son shooting rapid fire with the .303 he shot standing and only at 100 yards but the look on some of the Newer shooters faces as he shot rounds 6,7,8,9 and 10 and then put in his second mag and let 10 more fly was awesome. Since he has been shooting for about as long as he could hold a gun most of his shots were on target even though as he finished the box he was getting tired lol.
 
The last time we were at the range I had my son shooting rapid fire with the .303 he shot standing and only at 100 yards but the look on some of the Newer shooters faces as he shot rounds 6,7,8,9 and 10 and then put in his second mag and let 10 more fly was awesome. Since he has been shooting for about as long as he could hold a gun most of his shots were on target even though as he finished the box he was getting tired lol.

Get some chargers and treat the magazine as a box mag (part of the rifle not to be removed). Then the lead really flies! Way faster with chargers than a mag swap could ever be. Particularly on an Enfield.

That Krag rifle was some sweet kit. Someone had their thinking cap on tight when that action was designed. How'd it hold up in battle/field conditions?
 
This is a norwegian shooting discipline called "Stang shooting", named after colonel Georg Stang (1858 - 1907. He was the minister of defence, and did build several borderfortresses towards Sweden during the last years of the union. Norway / Sweden broke up in 1905)). It was shot for the first time in 1912, and today it's the most popular discipline during the national championships, with nationwide TV broadcast and all. The shooters shoot at two distances. Usually 250 and 150 (+/-) meters. It's about hitting the target as many times as possible in 25 seconds. The other rapid fire discipline is called "Felthurtig" (field speed shooting). Three targets at an unknown distance is to be hit as fast as possible. Six rounds in the rifle allowed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cnAwRJc7Sw&list=PLsaTd22zdVWYTmkLRuAsMjJNMpMn8mzle&index=22

Instruction video from 1986:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWIi5m9-0S8

Several shooters are so good they manage 17 hits in 25 seconds. These guys have now taken it a bit further and now trys the british "Mad minute challenge":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHZSgNrHjXg&index=35&list=PLsaTd22zdVWYTmkLRuAsMjJNMpMn8mzle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YlPc77Ul3s&index=32&list=PLsaTd22zdVWYTmkLRuAsMjJNMpMn8mzle
 
Thomas Heogasseter did the 36 hits in the 60 second "Mad Minute - 30-May-2015 - his "run" and his target is shown in third link above from B.M.F. (Heogasster is closest to camera in third group of shooters). As near as I could find, it appears that their target is a 40 cm (15.75") black circle and the range was 200 meters (219 yards). Works out that he maintained a 6.9 MOA at that rate of fire!!
 
That Krag rifle was some sweet kit. Someone had their thinking cap on tight when that action was designed. How'd it hold up in battle/field conditions?

Issues with the Krag is it is a weaker action design, and I don't like how you have to pull up on the extractor to take the bolt out. It also could only be loaded single rounds (unless you have one of the civilian made speedloaders which are basically a magazine that dumps the rounds into the Krags). It did ok, but realistically it was only in combat for very short periods of time (both Denmark and Norway were overran pretty quickly). You would be much better off with virtually any other bolt action of the era as your reload times were very slow, which makes a big difference when you are shooting fast (when the Germans have the K98k and they can load significantly faster, they could out shoot you pretty quickly). Only bolt-action which I really consider worse to use for combat would be the Lebel as it was the only modern rifle at that point which was slower to load than the Krag.
 
Issues with the Krag is it is a weaker action design, and I don't like how you have to pull up on the extractor to take the bolt out. It also could only be loaded single rounds (unless you have one of the civilian made speedloaders which are basically a magazine that dumps the rounds into the Krags). It did ok, but realistically it was only in combat for very short periods of time (both Denmark and Norway were overran pretty quickly). You would be much better off with virtually any other bolt action of the era as your reload times were very slow, which makes a big difference when you are shooting fast (when the Germans have the K98k and they can load significantly faster, they could out shoot you pretty quickly). Only bolt-action which I really consider worse to use for combat would be the Lebel as it was the only modern rifle at that point which was slower to load than the Krag.

Well that fellow there certainly overcame that little hurdle with the Krag, didn't he?
He's rapido.
 
The Krag action was plenty strong enough for the issue ammunition. It was 80 years after it's adoption they started to download the ammo. It's also very fast to reload without any clip. You just flip the magazine open, drop in a handfull of rounds and shut the lid. And you can do it with a round in the chamber. I don't think a K98K is that much faster to reload even with a clip. There was a charger designed even before the Krag was adopted, but the generals decided it was an unnecessary luxury. The Krag actually did well in combat. The germans learned that the hard way..., and they did issue lot's of Krags themselves, even on the russian front. Here's a pic. from Russia: https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-search/search/_1433969073/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=27

I'm a Krag fan, but of course I agree it's not the best battle rifle around.


Some pros and cons:

Pros:
- Great rifle in a great caliber. The 6,5 mm boattail spitzer had a very flat trajectory, and low recoil.
- The M/12 carbine was a much handier version than the longrifle.
- In winterconditions, the large boltknob was easy to grip with thick gloves (that was also the reason the downturned bolthandle on the M/12 was dropped).
- It's an accurate rifle, at least no worse than other rifles of the era.
- Despite the missing stripperclip slot, it's fairly quick to load, and the magazine can be topped off with a round still in the chamber.
- It's a smooth action, and very comfortable to shoot.
- Excellent for rapid fire.
- A scoped sniper version was available.


Cons:
- It was originally designed to be used as a singleloader, with the magazine in reserve, and has no guide for a stripperclip.
- The sights are very fine, and hard to see in dim light. but still pretty standard compared to other rifles of the period.
- The locking lugs are unsymetrical. The target rifles with thick freefloating barrels got a big change of POI when shot with wet or oily cartridges.
The fullstock military models didn't suffer from this flaw.

I did answer this on another forum as well. Go there to see pics. of the various clips for the Krag:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?378957-Norwegian-Krag-in-WW-II-out-dated
 
was interesting that the Mauser '98 (I dont think it was a '96) in the second vid was the only one to have a ftf problem .. and looks like a problem getting the extractor to slip over the cartridge while rechambering as well. I am a "believer" in the "controlled" feed of the mauser but I wonder if the much vaunted advantages arent a little "over stated" ..... I do like the ejectors on the mauser/brno/model 70 (pre-64 style) as I think that the spring loaded plunger style favoured in other actions can misbehave and malfunction or "may" exert uneven pressure on the the case head in the chamber. I am impressed that these "senior" shooters were still having fun and enjoying their sport. Also great to see all the public support as well!
 
The Krag action was plenty strong enough for the issue ammunition. It was 80 years after it's adoption they started to download the ammo. It's also very fast to reload without any clip. You just flip the magazine open, drop in a handfull of rounds and shut the lid. And you can do it with a round in the chamber. I don't think a K98K is that much faster to reload even with a clip. There was a charger designed even before the Krag was adopted, but the generals decided it was an unnecessary luxury. The Krag actually did well in combat. The germans learned that the hard way..., and they did issue lot's of Krags themselves, even on the russian front. Here's a pic. from Russia: https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-search/search/_1433969073/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=27
I'm a Krag fan, but of course I agree it's not the best battle rifle around.
Some pros and cons:
Pros:
- Great rifle in a great caliber. The 6,5 mm boattail spitzer had a very flat trajectory, and low recoil.
The Norwegians never issued a boattail spitzer round, instead they had a round nose bullet, the M94 standard 6.5 Swedish, another issue is the Krag action isn't designed to be shot with the current 6.5 Swedish on the market as all of it is based on the M/41 ammo which is higher pressure
- The M/12 carbine was a much handier version than the longrifle.
True but that can be said about virtually any countries carbine
- In winterconditions, the large boltknob was easy to grip with thick gloves (that was also the reason the downturned bolthandle on the M/12 was dropped).
True
- It's an accurate rifle, at least no worse than other rifles of the era.
The Norwegian Krags are very accurate rifles, I would love to get a Lang Krag to play with
- Despite the missing stripperclip slot, it's fairly quick to load, and the magazine can be topped off with a round still in the chamber.
The whole topping off with the round in the chamber detail is very much overrated, if your that desperate you just put half a stripper clip in for any other nation. The biggest issue with the Krag for loading is it uses loose ammo, which isn't bad in a modern context as you just grab some from your box of ammo and put it in the gun. If your in combat you have to try to keep the ammo somewhere it won't fall out too easily and is easy to grab. The ammo must be pointed the right way, so if you pull out say two rounds and one is pointed backwards you have to readjust it before putting it in, which slows you down. On top of that if you are using it in the winter I suspect you would have gloves on, it is much easier to grab a clip of 5 or 6 rounds than single rounds and hope they are pointing the right direction.
- It's a smooth action, and very comfortable to shoot.
Very true
- Excellent for rapid fire.
Until it came time to reload, in which case you hope your ammo is set up correctly
- A scoped sniper version was available.
True for most countries as well though
Cons:
- It was originally designed to be used as a singleloader, with the magazine in reserve, and has no guide for a stripperclip.
- The sights are very fine, and hard to see in dim light. but still pretty standard compared to other rifles of the period.
- The locking lugs are unsymetrical. The target rifles with thick freefloating barrels got a big change of POI when shot with wet or oily cartridges.
The fullstock military models didn't suffer from this flaw.
I did answer this on another forum as well. Go there to see pics. of the various clips for the Krag:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?378957-Norwegian-Krag-in-WW-II-out-dated

Overall I like the Krag, I just feel it wasn't the best military rifle. I can safely say I wouldn't want to be issued one unless the people I am fighting against have single shots. It is interesting to note the Danish Krag is even worse than the Norwegian one for combat as the magazine hinge pivots forward instead of downwards so it was even more difficult to load. In terms of what others were being issued in 1894 they were behind the game even then, Mauser had designs up to the M93 Spanish Mauser, Austria-Hungary had the M90 carbines, and the 88/90s, Russia had the M91 Mosin Nagant, and the only worse service rifle would be the 1886 Lebel rifle, as not only is it difficult to load, it was expensive to manufacture as well.

One of these days I will get a Krag again, just because I only got to shoot one round out of one (corroded chamber which I had to beat the brass out of with a cleaning rod). I think if someone made a modern rifle with a Krag based magazine, I am sure that could sell pretty good. I would love to see if someone could make a .22 based on the krag magazine as that would realistically be the best round to benefit from not needing to load a magazine or a stripper clip.
 
Hello Eaglelord17:

The Norwegians never issued a boattail spitzer round, instead they had a round nose bullet, the M94 standard 6.5 Swedish, another issue is the Krag action isn't designed to be shot with the current 6.5 Swedish on the market as all of it is based on the M/41 ammo which is higher pressure

The norwegian army issued a 139 grain boattailed spitzer projectile in 1925. The new ammo had a velocity of 750 m/s, and was called "D-spiss", the old one was "B-spiss" (spiss means point or "spitzer"). Tests started with a new bullet from NORMA in 1910. Johan Enger, one of the brothers who started NORMA was also one of the leaders of the norwegian shooters movement. He had Krags fitted with scopes and set up trials for the army in 1905, wich resulted in a Krag sniper adopted in 1910 (1000 snipers were made). http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022714744
The tests with the new bullet were very positive, but the long rifles and short carbines got different POI. The development of a "short rifle" started at the same time. The result was the M/12 carbines. The ammo question was postponed until the M/12 was finalized. Then came WWI and things were put on ice again, but finally in 1925 the new round was adopted.
Those of you who have a M/12 Krag carbine can flip the rear sight ladder forwards. You'll se a sight notch on the underside. This is a 500m battlesight. This is the point were the trajectories of the old and new ammo meet. I think it was in 1974 they started to download the Krag ammo. Target shooters that had shot tens of thousands of rounds through their rifles started to find cracks and signs of metal fatique. The standard ammo you buy for the Krag today has a 144 grain Sierra match king bullet, V0 = 770 m/s, preassure = 2800 bar.
Some old Krag ammo: http://www.kvf.no/ammo-65x55.php

I agree with you that the magazine is a big drawback, but again it's from a time when magazines were meant to be in reserve. On the other hand various cliploading systems were availeable, and were tested by the army. This is the clip made by the "Rifle commision of 1891": http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022714496
Here's the Krag with the Mauser clips: http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022714722

Anyway, I just love it. It's weird and different.
 
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The Krag action had a reputation for smooth operation. The Krag was the standard US Army service rifle from 1894 to 1903 when it was replaced by the M1903 Springfield, a modern Mauser based design which featured clip loading and allowed the use of a higher pressure ctg with improved ballistic properties.
 
Hello Eaglelord17:

The Norwegians never issued a boattail spitzer round, instead they had a round nose bullet, the M94 standard 6.5 Swedish, another issue is the Krag action isn't designed to be shot with the current 6.5 Swedish on the market as all of it is based on the M/41 ammo which is higher pressure

The norwegian army issued a 139 grain boattailed spitzer projectile in 1925. The new ammo had a velocity of 750 m/s, and was called "D-spiss", the old one was "B-spiss" (spiss means point or "spitzer"). Tests started with a new bullet from NORMA in 1910. Johan Enger, one of the brothers who started NORMA was also one of the leaders of the norwegian shooters movement. He had Krags fitted with scopes and set up trials for the army in 1905, wich resulted in a Krag sniper adopted in 1910 (1000 snipers were made). http://digitaltmuseum.no/011022714744
The tests with the new bullet were very positive, but the long rifles and short carbines got different POI. The development of a "short rifle" started at the same time. The result was the M/12 carbines. The ammo question was postponed until the M/12 was finalized. Then came WWI and things were put on ice again, but finally in 1925 the new round was adopted.
Those of you who have a M/12 Krag carbine can flip the rear sight ladder forwards. You'll se a sight notch on the underside. This is a 500m battlesight. This is the point were the trajectories of the old and new ammo meet. I think it was in 1974 they started to download the Krag ammo. Target shooters that had shot tens of thousands of rounds through their rifles started to find cracks and signs of metal fatique. The standard ammo you buy for the Krag today has a 144 grain Sierra match king bullet, V0 = 770 m/s, preassure = 2800 bar.
Some old Krag ammo: http://www.kvf.no/ammo-65x55.php

Thanks for the information I was unaware the Norwegians ever adopted a Spitzer bullet.
 
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