Bolt damage due to loose primers

chalkriver

chalkriver

BANNED
BANNED
BANNED
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
175   0   0
Location
Ontario
I just noticed my Rem 700 boltface is damaged and I have using Winchester primers....I have read since they have a bad reputation for this. The ejector is showing some damage as well .
I have shot aprox 400 reloads of Remington Brass through it .
Some lighter loads were shot during load development and factory ammo .
I was mainly using 44.4 gr varget with a 168 HPBT so its well below max charge for a 308 .
I noticed in the past a few primers didn't take very much effort to seat but none fell out .
I read the bolt face can be refaced and the barrel headspaced .I had planned on a rebarrel and true the action someday but my concern is can I still continue using my rifle with the bolt in this condition in the meantime until l rebarrel ?
The IVI brass in the pic was loaded well below max charge and the bolt damage was before it was shot as I just switched brass and none showed any blow by.
Do the firing pin protrusions look a bit cratered ...?

Thanks





41.7 grains on the left progressing up to 42.8 on the right
 
Last edited:
Just my .02 worth, but those primers look like they have flowed into the space between the bolt face and firing pin which I believe is a sign of over pressure. Could overpressure have enlarged the primer pockets on the Rem brass and let gas impinge on the bolt face? Anyone else care to provide clarification?
My Hornady manual lists 44 gr of Varget as a max load with 165/168 gr bullets. It would be even hotter in a Mil case.
 
Those primers look like mine at 44.9 gr of varget pushing a 175 smk(the cratering). So I'd say Def pressure signs?


I've read a bunch about win LR primers having issues like this. There was a thread on here with lot numbers of defective primers, basically blasting the bolt face like yours.
 
Last edited:
My books list it at 46 gr varget max load . Muzzle velocity was just over 2600 fps with the 44.4 gr varget in the rem brass
I dropped a couple of grains due to IVI brass and the max load used on the IVI brass in the pic was only 42.8 varget on far right in the pic...with the ones on the left starting at 41.7gr. I was doing load development and max velocity was 2650 fps .
 
This is a primer issue, and not necessarily an overpressure issue. Certain lots of Winchester primers have acknowledged issues.
There is still adequate radius on the outer edge of those fired primers, so I would say the pressures are OK.

The cratered primers are caused by a generous firing pin hole diameter, and is actually fairly common.

Get rid of those faulty primers. The rifle is safe to use with the boltface looking like it does.

Regards, Dave.
 
Thanks for the advice and good news !!


Eagleye said:
This is a primer issue, and not necessarily an overpressure issue. Certain lots of Winchester primers have acknowledged issues.
There is still adequate radius on the outer edge of those fired primers, so I would say the pressures are OK.

The cratered primers are caused by a generous firing pin hole diameter, and is actually fairly common.

Get rid of those faulty primers. The rifle is safe to use with the boltface looking like it does.

Regards, Dave.
Click to expand...
 
First thing is stop using winchester primers, too many issues with them piercing. CCI-200's work good.
Some of that cratering is pretty common from loose firing pin hole and the slight chamfer they've been putting on some of them for no good reason.
If you're careful with your loads and keep an eye on them and make sure the bolt face doesn't keep getting eaten away with those winchester primers.. you should keep able to keep using it until you're ready to get it all fixed up.
 
Your load of varget & 168gr bullets is very close to 60,000 psi quite a warm load for Federal brass, your IVI brass has a higher max pressure 62,000.
When seating primers loose in Federal brass you get gases leaking around primers which will cause the etching on bolt face and the odd blown primers as well. Fellows shooting F class are using close to your load with 200 gr bullets (very warm load) but most shooters are using Lapua Palma brass with small primers. These lapua cases are much more beefier in web of case like military brass thus the pockets stay tight not like Federal and other domestic brass.
The brass in photo does show cratering of primers, very common with Rem 700, hole in bolt face is to big leaving a gap between firing pin thus the primers flow between.
My friend sent his savage to a smith in Quebec and he drilled hole in bolt face and threaded it and then put in a threaded plug with epoxy then drilled out plug with smaller hole to fit firing pin. I think he leaned up bolt face might have tigged welded the bolt face then cleaned it up on lathe he had no more problems.
You might want to check with Guntec Denis Sorenson he might be able to help you out and at same time get him to do his magic truing your action.
hope this helps
manitou
 
manitou210 said:
Your load of varget & 168gr bullets is very close to 60,000 psi quite a warm load for Federal brass, your IVI brass has a higher max pressure 62,000.
Click to expand...

Careful with that. Can't just interchange powder loads between two sets of brass. The IVI has lower volume and makes more pressure with the same quantity of powder.
 
oneadam12 said:
Careful with that. Can't just interchange powder loads between two sets of brass. The IVI has lower volume and makes more pressure with the same quantity of powder.
Click to expand...

Your right.
Hogdon lists 46 gr max load and my Lyman 4th edition lists it at 45.7 max ( but not for IVI)
I took that into consideration and started my load testing at 41.7 gr ....2.7 gr lower than my normal load of 44.4 .
The ammo pic shows 41.7gr on the left up to 42.8gr on the right .
 
Eagleye is correct as always. Get rid of that batch of primers or use them in a lower caliber like 30-30. Craters are from oversized firing pin hole and NOT pressure. The face is ugly but won't effect anything except resale
 
Silvertip13 said:
Eagles is correct as always. Get rid of that batch of primers or use them in a lower caliber like 30-30. Craters are from oversized firing pin hole and NOT pressure. The face is ugly but won't effect anything except resale
Click to expand...

Are you talking about me or my bolt ... cuz both apply ,,lol
 
chalkriver said:
I just noticed my Rem 700 boltface is damaged and I have using Winchester primers....I have read since they have a bad reputation for this. The ejector is showing some damage as well .
I have shot aprox 400 reloads of Remington Brass through it .
Some lighter loads were shot during load development and factory ammo .
I was mainly using 44.4 gr varget with a 168 HPBT so its well below max charge for a 308 .
I noticed in the past a few primers didn't take very much effort to seat but none fell out .
I read the bolt face can be refaced and the barrel headspaced .I had planned on a rebarrel and true the action someday but my concern is can I still continue using my rifle with the bolt in this condition in the meantime until l rebarrel ?
The IVI brass in the pic was loaded well below max charge and the bolt damage was before it was shot as I just switched brass and none showed any blow by.
Do the firing pin protrusions look a bit cratered ...?

Thanks





41.7 grains on the left progressing up to 42.8 on the right
Click to expand...

Hey Morgan,

You would have to take a close look at the primers to determine if it is because they are defective.
The defect in the primers is that the edge of the cup is thin and will pierce causing the gasses to erode the bolt face.

Winchester has paid to replace an M14 bolt including gunsmithing fees for TonyBen
http://m14forum.com/m14/162899-m14-bolt-face-primer-errosion.html
 
How did you remove the crimp on the IVI, swagging or with a trimmer? I have found primer blowby with casings that have had the crimp removed with a case mouth trimmer but not with a swagging tool in a press.
 
freedomintheskies said:
Just my .02 worth, but those primers look like they have flowed into the space between the bolt face and firing pin which I believe is a sign of over pressure. Could overpressure have enlarged the primer pockets on the Rem brass and let gas impinge on the bolt face? Anyone else care to provide clarification?
My Hornady manual lists 44 gr of Varget as a max load with 165/168 gr bullets. It would be even hotter in a Mil case.
Click to expand...

Cratering around the firing pin is usually the result of an oversized firing pin hole, not by too much pressure. The bolt face can be bushed to fix this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CDJKLp7BsI
 
theDuck said:
How did you remove the crimp on the IVI, swagging or with a trimmer? I have found primer blowby with casings that have had the crimp removed with a case mouth trimmer but not with a swagging tool in a press.
Click to expand...

I used this to remove the crimp. The damage was done with Remington brass as I have only recently switched to IVI.
I have only fired 70 rounds and no blow by on any of them .
 
The reason your primers are flowing around the firing pin is the firing pin hole is beveled due to a cost saving manufacturing method. My older Remington 700 did not have this problem but the newer 700 have a beveled opening in the firing pin hole in the bolt face. And my new 30-06 has the same problem and the factory says this is "normal". So dump the Winchester primers and buy another brand. In the mid 1970s I bought a bad brick of Remington 9 1/2 primers and Remington replace my bolt and gave me a new brick of primers. (hint get Winchester to pay for or fix the bolt)

boltface2_zpsdf1f12bc.jpg
 
Chalkriver
the bolt face on my Savage 243 looks pretty much the same.
Ditch the Winchester primers. I didn't realize it was a defective primer, I thought I was over pressure and chased my tail like crazy trying to figure it out. But when primers would fail during cream of wheat fire forming I decided there was something else wrong.

I too use IVI brass when I can, I just use a counter sink from home depot in a drill press to remove the crimp.
 
I Had the same issue with winchester primers. This had come up quite often in the forums in the last couple years. I switched brands and had no problems after. Some people contacted winchester and had thier bolts repaired. I didnt bother i plAn to get it cleaned up when a gunsmiths changes my barrel once i shoot it out. The small pits dont seem to have caused any ill effects to performance. I have two rifles with bolt faces that look like yours because of winchester primers. There was a list going around of the lot numbers of the affected primers. Even though mine were outside the recall i still had the problem.

Cheers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom