Bolt Roller and Guide Problems
- Thread starter C Broad Arrow
- Start date
or send it out this way for a 40.00 inspection. how many riflesmiths do you know that will offer that deal 
I'll check over all major parts groups, guage those parts with the corect guaging instruments and tell you exactly what the issue is. No guessing, no theorizing, get to the bottom of a NOT SO COMMON issue and give you informed options on what to do next. The rifle should NOT throw the bolt from the oprod during cycling, this is catastrophically dangerous. Restaking/pinning your oprod guide and then going and trying shooting again to "see if it happens again" is a dangerous approach.
get it to a Hungry clinic if you can or bite the bullet and ship it west
I've also been contacted by a fellow here who's 2007 (i think) norc has thrown the bolt roller from the bolt( after 100 rounds if i remember right)....... not good as well as this is also a VERY uncommon thing to happen and a bolt roller is not an easy item to remove without destroying it, which is the common mehod of removal..... destruction of the roller. If your roller comes off the bolt on it's own..... your rifle, namely oprod, bolt, receiver, need careful inspection by someone who really knows these rifles. The if the bolt's roller stud is still serviceable, a special tool is required to re instal the roller and it's spring clip. The solution may just be as simple as a replacement bolt ..... but the real cause as to why the first bolt threw it's roller has not been addressed and you potentially have an unsafe firearm.
I'll check over all major parts groups, guage those parts with the corect guaging instruments and tell you exactly what the issue is. No guessing, no theorizing, get to the bottom of a NOT SO COMMON issue and give you informed options on what to do next. The rifle should NOT throw the bolt from the oprod during cycling, this is catastrophically dangerous. Restaking/pinning your oprod guide and then going and trying shooting again to "see if it happens again" is a dangerous approach.get it to a Hungry clinic if you can or bite the bullet and ship it west
I've also been contacted by a fellow here who's 2007 (i think) norc has thrown the bolt roller from the bolt( after 100 rounds if i remember right)....... not good as well as this is also a VERY uncommon thing to happen and a bolt roller is not an easy item to remove without destroying it, which is the common mehod of removal..... destruction of the roller. If your roller comes off the bolt on it's own..... your rifle, namely oprod, bolt, receiver, need careful inspection by someone who really knows these rifles. The if the bolt's roller stud is still serviceable, a special tool is required to re instal the roller and it's spring clip. The solution may just be as simple as a replacement bolt ..... but the real cause as to why the first bolt threw it's roller has not been addressed and you potentially have an unsafe firearm.
or send it out this way for a 40.00 inspection. how many riflesmiths do you know that will offer that deal
get it to a Hungry clinic if you can or bite the bullet and ship it west
I've also been contacted by a fellow here who's 2007 (i think) norc has thrown the bolt roller from the bolt( after 100 rounds if i remember right)....... not good as well as this is also a VERY uncommon thing to happen and a bolt roller is not an easy item to remove without destroying it, which is the common mehod of removal..... destruction of the roller. If your roller comes off the bolt on it's own..... your rifle, namely oprod, bolt, receiver, need careful inspection by someone who really knows these rifles. The if the bolt's roller stud is still serviceable, a special tool is required to re instal the roller and it's spring clip. The solution may just be as simple as a replacement bolt ..... but the real cause as to why the first bolt threw it's roller has not been addressed and you potentially have an unsafe firearm.
yep that would be me, this thread just picked up my curiosity, but it's not the same problem...
no, not the same problem, but both are cause for careful inspection of bolt/oprod/receiver
the oprod/bolt jumping apart on cycling is indicitave of a out of spec oprod tab, and contributing factors can be barrel off index , oprod guide with excessive rotational movement. both cause twisting to the oprod on cycling and will lead to oprod tab wear and or permanent twist or bend to the oprod arm.
find a buddy with a norc m14 and try his oprod.
see if it has a better fit
check any rifle for a potential tab wear issue as follows
with rifle completely assembled, trigger group removed only.
cycle action slowly by hand , lifting up and pushing down on the oprod handle as you slowly move it from rear bolt lock up back to full open and back to bolt lock up. an up and down wiggle is the first sign of a loose oprod, meaning the tab and receiver slot are mated in such a way to allow vertical rotation of the oprod. there are 2 main locations on an oprod that mate to the receiver, if one or both of these locations is worn, the oprod develops vertical rotation effect while cycling.
these locations are on the tab itself and on the oprod body just above the tab.
i'd do pics but can't right now.
so, to diagnose the entire issue of the oprod throwing the bolt as shown in the pics is to
verify barrel index and correct if needed
verify a tight oprod guide and correct if needed ie match condition peening and new roll pin
then test for vertical rotation of the oprod or an up and down wiggle as oprod is slowly cycled
if vertical rotation is present, it is no cause for alarm, VERY common in chinese rifles. BUT EXCESSIVE vertical wiggle is not good and can and will lead to the oprod jumping out of it's receiver track and allowing the bolt to escape the oprods roller pocket....... which is VERY bad news.
the oprod/bolt jumping apart on cycling is indicitave of a out of spec oprod tab, and contributing factors can be barrel off index , oprod guide with excessive rotational movement. both cause twisting to the oprod on cycling and will lead to oprod tab wear and or permanent twist or bend to the oprod arm.
find a buddy with a norc m14 and try his oprod.
see if it has a better fit
check any rifle for a potential tab wear issue as follows
with rifle completely assembled, trigger group removed only.
cycle action slowly by hand , lifting up and pushing down on the oprod handle as you slowly move it from rear bolt lock up back to full open and back to bolt lock up. an up and down wiggle is the first sign of a loose oprod, meaning the tab and receiver slot are mated in such a way to allow vertical rotation of the oprod. there are 2 main locations on an oprod that mate to the receiver, if one or both of these locations is worn, the oprod develops vertical rotation effect while cycling.
these locations are on the tab itself and on the oprod body just above the tab.
i'd do pics but can't right now.
so, to diagnose the entire issue of the oprod throwing the bolt as shown in the pics is to
verify barrel index and correct if needed
verify a tight oprod guide and correct if needed ie match condition peening and new roll pin
then test for vertical rotation of the oprod or an up and down wiggle as oprod is slowly cycled
if vertical rotation is present, it is no cause for alarm, VERY common in chinese rifles. BUT EXCESSIVE vertical wiggle is not good and can and will lead to the oprod jumping out of it's receiver track and allowing the bolt to escape the oprods roller pocket....... which is VERY bad news.
Add a new one to the list:
Making me worry and realize all my guns are failures.
ie this:
so two things jump out at me in this pic from Charles's rifle... well actually 3 things
1) the firing pin tang is covered in grease.... probably not related to the problem at hand but that firing pin and inside your bolt should be 100% free of grease, lubricant and any foreign matter.
2) the sping clip appears to be on the bolt's roller stud still --- i zoomed in on it and looks like on the left of the stud you can see what appears to be the spring clip.
3) that roller is dammaged heavily along its outer edge that is facing the camera...... this is not normal. what is the cause of this? tools marks from using a tool to remove bolt from receiver? could be bolt roller slapping the receiver upon lock up.... damage or wear would be evident on receiver .... POST PICS of receiver's bolt roller side locking lug recess. Also could be machining imperfections inside the oprods roller pocket
in the great many rifles i've had at clinics, worked on at my bench and the countless threads from regular m14s/m305 users here on cgn, this is the first roller issue that has been brought to my attention.
"in the great many rifles i've had at clinics, worked on at my bench and the countless threads from regular m14s/m305 users here on cgn, this is the first roller issue that has been brought to my attention. "
I'm with you on that one!
Barney
I'm with you on that one!
Barney
1) I know the firing pin is greasy on this, but took this picture is as is, when I stripped the receiver for the first time in a year, when It got reassembled after bedding it was free of grease.
2) It might be just a bad shot, but there is no spring clip left on the bolt, visual effect maybe, but there is nothing but a groove.
3)I use nothing but my barehands to remove the bolt from receiver, so the wear would be from poor machined parts if you put it that way.
I will post more pics when I get home. But as I told you, if you are eager to get your hands on a challenge, I've got my racegun to repair first which will probably cost me all available funds.
Only obvious default would be my loose oprod guide, which I tried to fix with Hungry's provided roll pins, but I wasn't able to fit the 1/8 pin into the 1/4 nor peen the guide so it's pretty loose.
2) It might be just a bad shot, but there is no spring clip left on the bolt, visual effect maybe, but there is nothing but a groove.
3)I use nothing but my barehands to remove the bolt from receiver, so the wear would be from poor machined parts if you put it that way.
I will post more pics when I get home. But as I told you, if you are eager to get your hands on a challenge, I've got my racegun to repair first which will probably cost me all available funds.
Only obvious default would be my loose oprod guide, which I tried to fix with Hungry's provided roll pins, but I wasn't able to fit the 1/8 pin into the 1/4 nor peen the guide so it's pretty loose.
Is that bolt roller bottoming out on the reciever?
Also why is there so mouch maring on the up rod from were the roller seems to ride on?
How tight is that bolt? Can you move it freely with your hands or is it tough to slide in and out of battery?
Sorry for the many questions just that this is deffenatly a first for me to see.
Also why is there so mouch maring on the up rod from were the roller seems to ride on?
How tight is that bolt? Can you move it freely with your hands or is it tough to slide in and out of battery?
Sorry for the many questions just that this is deffenatly a first for me to see.
Is that bolt roller bottoming out on the reciever?
Also why is there so mouch maring on the up rod from were the roller seems to ride on?
How tight is that bolt? Can you move it freely with your hands or is it tough to slide in and out of battery?
Sorry for the many questions just that this is deffenatly a first for me to see.
if you read previous post, problem is stated, my bolt roller came off, its just there to show clearance, but it's not held in place by any means
the bolt is free to move
As to the marring, I have no idea, without the oprod spring guide nor spring the bolt + oprod seem to move freely, very smooth
the spring clip, according to m14doctor is what holds the bolt roller in place, YOU SHOULDNT ACTUALLY HAVE TO SEE IT.
C Broad Arrow
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Ok... My roller has not separated from the bolt. Thanks for clarifying.
rollers coming off is a very different problem than oprods jumping from the track and slipping the bolt.
I've pretty much covered the oprod issue but the roller issue Charles is experiencing is a new problem and uncommon.
what i can see in the pics posted, the very first pic posted shows obvious wear on the rollers leading edge.
then scrolling through the new pics, i see obvious wear inside the roller pocket of the oprod where the leading edge of the roller was contacting.
without actually having those parts in my hand to inspect, I would have to say the oprod's roller pocket is the problem.
this can be remedied but it is not a do it yourself at home kind of job.
your bolt does not appear damaged and most likely replacing the spring clip and roller will have the bolt serviceable. A special tool is required for replacing the roller
the oprod must be clearance correctly where the silvering/wear is visible inside the roller pocket. This is done in about 5 minutes on a milling machine...... or by bubba with a dremmel tool there are specific measurements for that pocket.
or simply get a roller installed and a replacement oprod that is not frubarred inside the roller pocket.
again this is an oddity issue, and goes in my books as the first time i've encountered this on a chinese rifle. I've seen it several times and have replaced rollers on several springfields. cause on those was the receiver where the bolt lug closes, instead of the lug hitting the receiver first at the bottom, the roller hit the receiver first.... not hard to imagine what happens next.
it's easy to test for this receiver issue, and we have not ruled that out on Charle's rifle. We can all inspect for this issue by closing the bolt all the way and as long as a strip of thick paper slides without contact between roller and receiver, with bolt lug making full bottom contact, there is no problem. If roller hits first or paper won't slide between it and receiver....... the receiver is the problem, also easily remedied with a mill.
the oprod could also show wear inside the pocket from a receiver issue as well so it's important to diagnose bolt lug/roller position/clearance when closed, rule that out and the culprit becomes the oprod
hope that helps
I've pretty much covered the oprod issue but the roller issue Charles is experiencing is a new problem and uncommon.
what i can see in the pics posted, the very first pic posted shows obvious wear on the rollers leading edge.
then scrolling through the new pics, i see obvious wear inside the roller pocket of the oprod where the leading edge of the roller was contacting.
without actually having those parts in my hand to inspect, I would have to say the oprod's roller pocket is the problem.
this can be remedied but it is not a do it yourself at home kind of job.
your bolt does not appear damaged and most likely replacing the spring clip and roller will have the bolt serviceable. A special tool is required for replacing the roller
the oprod must be clearance correctly where the silvering/wear is visible inside the roller pocket. This is done in about 5 minutes on a milling machine...... or by bubba with a dremmel tool
there are specific measurements for that pocket.or simply get a roller installed and a replacement oprod that is not frubarred inside the roller pocket.
again this is an oddity issue, and goes in my books as the first time i've encountered this on a chinese rifle. I've seen it several times and have replaced rollers on several springfields. cause on those was the receiver where the bolt lug closes, instead of the lug hitting the receiver first at the bottom, the roller hit the receiver first.... not hard to imagine what happens next.
it's easy to test for this receiver issue, and we have not ruled that out on Charle's rifle. We can all inspect for this issue by closing the bolt all the way and as long as a strip of thick paper slides without contact between roller and receiver, with bolt lug making full bottom contact, there is no problem. If roller hits first or paper won't slide between it and receiver....... the receiver is the problem, also easily remedied with a mill.
the oprod could also show wear inside the pocket from a receiver issue as well so it's important to diagnose bolt lug/roller position/clearance when closed, rule that out and the culprit becomes the oprod
hope that helps
rollers coming off is a very different problem than oprods jumping from the track and slipping the bolt.
I've pretty much covered the oprod issue but the roller issue Charles is experiencing is a new problem and uncommon.
what i can see in the pics posted, the very first pic posted shows obvious wear on the rollers leading edge.
then scrolling through the new pics, i see obvious wear inside the roller pocket of the oprod where the leading edge of the roller was contacting.
without actually having those parts in my hand to inspect, I would have to say the oprod's roller pocket is the problem.
this can be remedied but it is not a do it yourself at home kind of job.
your bolt does not appear damaged and most likely replacing the spring clip and roller will have the bolt serviceable. A special tool is required for replacing the roller
the oprod must be clearance correctly where the silvering/wear is visible inside the roller pocket. This is done in about 5 minutes on a milling machine...... or by bubba with a dremmel tool
or simply get a roller installed and a replacement oprod that is not frubarred inside the roller pocket.
again this is an oddity issue, and goes in my books as the first time i've encountered this on a chinese rifle. I've seen it several times and have replaced rollers on several springfields. cause on those was the receiver where the bolt lug closes, instead of the lug hitting the receiver first at the bottom, the roller hit the receiver first.... not hard to imagine what happens next.
it's easy to test for this receiver issue, and we have not ruled that out on Charle's rifle. We can all inspect for this issue by closing the bolt all the way and as long as a strip of thick paper slides without contact between roller and receiver, with bolt lug making full bottom contact, there is no problem. If roller hits first or paper won't slide between it and receiver....... the receiver is the problem, also easily remedied with a mill.
the oprod could also show wear inside the pocket from a receiver issue as well so it's important to diagnose bolt lug/roller position/clearance when closed, rule that out and the culprit becomes the oprod
hope that helps
Some instight from the masters is always appreciated, just tell me when you reopen, it mgiht just be headed your way then...
