Bought new rifle, Old Sako AV in 9.3 X 300 WM - 2967 FPS with 286 NPs
- Thread starter c-fbmi
- Start date
When do we proclaim the 9.3x300wm the NEW KING and start showering it with accolades?
You need to specify that it's the NEW KING of the 9.3's....Then proceed at will.
Hey Douglas... Keep up the good work and pay no never mind to the critics.
You'd probably have somebody whining even if you posted a test report on a 22 rimfire. I thoroughly enjoy every post you put up.
Did someone mention a case life of 3 reloads ??
Thats all I get out of the Hornady brass for my 375 Ruger and I'm not pushing the pressure..
You'd probably have somebody whining even if you posted a test report on a 22 rimfire. I thoroughly enjoy every post you put up.
Did someone mention a case life of 3 reloads ??
Thats all I get out of the Hornady brass for my 375 Ruger and I'm not pushing the pressure..
Safe for awhile, anyway. Run anything at full throttle long enough and eventually something gives.
The other aspect is "why?" It's so easy these days to just use a cartridge with a bigger case if we desire added performance, and then we can run at lower pressures. Brass doesn't have to wear out in 3 firings, and high pressure loads like being discussed have such small real world performance gains that there really aren't really any practical advantages.
The point is, is that what is "full throttle" for the brass case is nothing but a high idle for the action and barrel. You are also correct in saying "eventually something give" and it does.....it's the brass case that gives up, not the action or barrel that are just idling along.
As to why, please go back to post 48, I think I answered the why there, most eloquently.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
The New King...of powder burners! I wonder how slow a powder you'd need to run a case like that to it's potential? 115gr of H50BMG or thereabouts. Douglas could probably drive a rig like that fast enough to peel the driving bands off a TSX!
What about the huge increase in back thrust ? Those loads are probably creating well over 11,000 lbs of back thrust. That compares to about 7400 lbs for a max load .30-06 Sprgfld.
Now the shear area the locking lugs on a Remington 700 action is about .390 sq. inches, and the locking lug area that contacts the recesses is about .140 sq inches, assuming 100% contact. I know you have a Sako, but I suspect the numbers are similar.
So you are looking at +78,500 psi on the locking lug area, vs about 52,000 lbs for a max load .30-06. That is more than a 50% increase in the former. How does that affect metal fatigue? What warning signs - perhaps headspace - would you expect to encounter?
1899, the warning signs would be set lugs or increasing headspace, for sure. In the case of set lugs or recesses the rifle will normally lock up solid and will not open. As to increasing headspace, that is a lot more difficult as it is normally a long term proposition. I have never found this with any of the Rems I've played with, even the one I had to remove the barrel to open did not set the lugs or recesses. In retrospect I definately should have checked headspace but did not, what I did was mike from the muzzle to bolt face, in this measurement there was no measureable increase. This tells me there was no thread stretch or rearward movement of the bolt. Theoretically there should be no increase in headspace.
Those who neglect to lube their locking lugs do more damage and increase in headspacing than all of my tests put together.
I can also tell you 1899, almost every factory chamber I've checked will close on a no-go guage. To track increasing HS one would need to start with a properly chambered rifle and track it from new over several thousand rounds of high intensity loads and see if headspace does in fact increase over time. It always will marginally due to mating surface wear and wear in but should be insignificant, possibly .001-.002" max and this will usually happen in the first 100-200 firings. After the "break in" it should settle down to possibly a few 10 thousanths over the rest of the barrel life. (or blueprint the action from the start, if custom built. I was referring to a factory barreled rifle)
I haven't played with most of this stuff for the past 20 years, but I was thick into it in my 30s.
PO Ackley determined bolt thrust to be of much less importance in a straight walled (read min taper) case. Even though the pressure is there of coarse, it has a very minimal effect on the action. He believed that cartridges like the 300 H+H were harder on actions and bolt thrust than higher pressure loads in a minimum taper case......hence the line of AI cartridges. I would never be so arrogant as to question Ackley, his theories or findings. In fact in the old days I used his books as the "bible of gun stuff" when I was playing. Although we had a very good mutual friend I never got to meet PO but dearly would have loved to. Can you just imagine spending an evening talkin to PO, WOW!!!
Its a Ruger Alaskan.. cases will not hold a primer of any brand after 3 firings and the case itself does not even need trimming.
I've already gone through over 20 cases... frustrating.
Sorry for the hi-jack...
The loads that our mutual friend was using to get the velocities being discussed in this 9.3X300 Win still had tight primer pockets after five firings.
Mauser98 posted the most pertinent observation, which evidently everyone else missed, the 26" barrel with a chamber that intentionally has a long throat.
Ted
Mauser98 posted the most pertinent observation, which evidently everyone else missed, the 26" barrel with a chamber that intentionally has a long throat.
Ted
Kevan, I've found this with all Horn brass, it is very soft and malleable and will not take any pressure well. My son has the same problem with a bunch of 06 brass from Horn. I won't use it, period.
Thanks for the kind words earlier.
I had the same issue with some .338 and .270 brass.
60gr of H4831 and a 130gr SST shook the .270 loose in two firings.
I am finding this to be one of the most EDUCATIONAL threads in at least a decade on this forum. THANKS to those of you posting useful comments that are adding to my education!
Thanks to those who are posting respectful threads asking about details, even though you (clearly) have some issues with the whole BIG BANG THEORY being posited here. Respectful negative discourse is a highly useful intellectual tool.BUT I have also found that in the last five years or so, most threads get hijacked by kids, kooks, and cranks, and it is just not worth posting a SERIOUS gun thread any more. Accordingly, I have posted almost nothing for a number of years. How exceptionally refreshing to see a thread like this, albeit with naysayers and ####heads who should keep their ill-informed opinions to themselves.
I do feel like I am in the company of like-minded gun enthusiasts who are seriously interested in the "gee whiz" area of shooting, and by golly it is fabulous.
I just hope all the dickweeds and naysayers go away, keep their ignorance covered, and allow the genius of the OP to shine away unblemished, for those of us who are interested.
SO FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT TO ARGUE WITH THE OP, CAN YOU PLEASE GO PLAY IN OFF TOPICS WHERE YOU AND THE DAISY RED RYDER GROUP PROPERLY BELONG? THANK YOU.
Doug
Ted - you know that I have the greatest respect for you and your vast knowledge, but we are talking about getting 5500 ft-lbs of energy out of a case that holds perhaps 91gr.
I am of the view that you don't get a free lunch.
You have "some" experience with the .358 Norma Mag. That case would have slightly less capacity, and the .358 STA would have almost 15% more case capacity. The .358 Norma would work hard to get a 250gr bullet to 2800 fps, and I think the STA might make 3000 with the same bullet.
So long throat ( a la Weatherby) or not, you are talking about a relatively small case making as much power as a .378 Wby Mag (factory 300gr loads listed at 2925 fps). I have faith that you won't hurt yourself, but we are talking about some pretty extreme loads here, aren't we?
One of you guys must have QuickLoad - I am curious to see what kind of pressures these loads might give. I am not 100% convinced that the much increased back thrust is safe and will give a proper warning before a serious problem.
Perhaps someone with more engineering/metalurical expertise can provide a good explanation.
I am of the view that you don't get a free lunch.
You have "some" experience with the .358 Norma Mag. That case would have slightly less capacity, and the .358 STA would have almost 15% more case capacity. The .358 Norma would work hard to get a 250gr bullet to 2800 fps, and I think the STA might make 3000 with the same bullet.
So long throat ( a la Weatherby) or not, you are talking about a relatively small case making as much power as a .378 Wby Mag (factory 300gr loads listed at 2925 fps). I have faith that you won't hurt yourself, but we are talking about some pretty extreme loads here, aren't we?
One of you guys must have QuickLoad - I am curious to see what kind of pressures these loads might give. I am not 100% convinced that the much increased back thrust is safe and will give a proper warning before a serious problem.
Perhaps someone with more engineering/metalurical expertise can provide a good explanation.
I am finding this to be one of the most EDUCATIONAL threads in at least a decade on this forum. THANKS to those of you posting useful comments that are adding to my education!
BUT I have also found that in the last five years or so, most threads get hijacked by kids, kooks, and cranks, and it is just not worth posting a SERIOUS gun thread any more. Accordingly, I have posted almost nothing for a number of years. How exceptionally refreshing to see a thread like this, albeit with naysayers and s**theads who should keep their ill-informed opinions to themselves.
I do feel like I am in the company of like-minded gun enthusiasts who are seriously interested in the "gee whiz" area of shooting, and by golly it is fabulous.
I just hope all the dickweeds and naysayers go away, keep their ignorance covered, and allow the genius of the OP to shine away unblemished, for those of us who are interested.
SO FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT TO ARGUE WITH THE OP, CAN YOU PLEASE GO PLAY IN OFF TOPICS WHERE YOU AND THE DAISY RED RYDER GROUP PROPERLY BELONG? THANK YOU.
Doug
Doug, it's really you!
You're back!
1899, I appreciate your kind comments. The feeling is mutual.
Okay, let me put this all in a better perspective. Years ago we built, not one, but two 375s on the 300 Win Mag case, one on a SAKO, the other a Patter14 Enfield. Both rifles would get 270 gr bullets over 3000 fps.
Then we did a 358 on the 300 Win,.... lo and behold 250s went past 3000 fps.
Those were the Halcyon days when we used case life as a measure of loading safety. Any load that did not expand primer pockets after five firings was considered a safe load for regular use. With this in mind, most of us loaded the 358 Norma Mag to well over 2800 fps with 250 gr bullets. Some loaded to 2900, although I never did myself, as I determined 2800 was plenty for big game, and was getting beat up enough at that velocity.
I got my first 358 Norma in 1969, a Husqvarna with a 23 3/4" barrel. I drove a lot of 250s out of it, and several others, at over 2800 without incident, killing several tons of game with aplomb, and to the best of my recollection never losing a case due to expanded primer pockets.
We used Oehler chronographs that had screens with electrical circuits that we actually shot through, physically breaking the circuit to start and stop the timer. The elapsed time was determined by an intricate manipulation of dials and lights, the resultant number then being further interpolated from tables to render the velocity. In 1977 I got my first Oehler that had Sky Screens, the Model 33. We could shoot repeatedly without having to replace the screens! And, the velocity was a direct readout, along with average velocity and standard deviation. We were ballistic neophytes, but continued to learn more and more. Standard deviation, in particular, was a real eye opener, but that is another thread.
The magic number back then was IMR 4350. You could compress enough of it with the 250 Speer to reach 2800. IIRC the load in the Speer Manual was 2790 fps. There was no Re17, 22, etc, and most of us never dreamed we would have the variety of powders available to us we have today.
So, what does all this have to do with your concerns. There are no small number of us old farts who still believe that if primer pockets are still tight after five firings, that the load is safe. That's it in a nutshell. I have been loading since 1962, and still have all my fingers and my eyesight.
Have I blown up any guns? No. Have I loaded until I blew primers? A few times. What do I do when that happens? I reduce the load a full ten percent, call it good, and go to a slower powder.
While I did not do all the firing of the rifle in question, I did do some, and was there when the velocities were recorded. I did not personally load and fire five rounds from the same case, but know the man who did very well, and he is not only a very experienced handloader, but one of the most honest men I know. There is nothing in this for him to exaggerate velocities. In fact, he recently gave up on a 270 Wby because he could not get even close to factory velocities.
Yes, that is a lot of power being developed by the 300 Win case, and we were both quite surprised at the velocities. One thing I do know, WW 300 mag cases are about as strong as anything around. I routinely load 180s to over 3100 fps out of 24" barrels with good case life and no expanded primer pockets. There is at least one 300 Win Mag load in an older Speer Manual showing their 180 gr spitzer at 3200 fps using 4350. I actually loaded and shot that particular recipe quite a bit.
Taking this all one day at a time, and with patience, we will see if C-FBMI can shed any more light on this. He already has said he did not reach those velocities, and that speaks of his being forthright with all of us here.
My apologies for such a long post.
Ted
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Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
Yup.
I bought two boxes of it for my .454 casull and with full powered loads the brass is finished in 3-4 firings. At about $1 per case, I'm really not impressed.
