Bought the dream rifle, or bought the farm, today.

Dogleg said:
Add to that Sabbati's disasterous attempt of regululating barrels on a jig. Sometimes man will triumph over machine, and art over science.
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I handled an engraved Sabatti when first shopping doubles at a Cabelas in the states (impressive gun rooms they have), and "gaudy" is the first word that came to mind, I was not at all impressed unfortunately. Humans and smoke will still fit tighter than CNC machines, to be sure.
 
Ardent said:
I handled an engraved Sabatti when first shopping doubles at a Cabelas in the states (impressive gun rooms they have), and "gaudy" is the first word that came to mind, I was not at all impressed unfortunately. Humans and smoke will still fit tighter than CNC machines, to be sure.
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Maybe so! ;), but is the product any better for being all hand-made, rather than just hand-fitted at the end where it is really necessary? Better or not, it's going to be far more expensive which means you can only sell only sell a few, but British industry is famous for antiquated, time-consuming methods and minimal capital investment, as much as quality products. It's all down to national psychologies in the end.
 
RRCo. said:
Maybe so! ;), but is the product any better for being all hand-made, rather than just hand-fitted at the end where it is really necessary? Better or not, it's going to be far more expensive which means you can only sell only sell a few, but British industry is famous for antiquated, time-consuming methods and minimal capital investment, as much as quality products. It's all down to national psychologies in the end.
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Yes, because that is art, and nobody buys a Hollands' Royal for the function. ;) It's more than a rifle, and that's why people pay far over a rifle price. I have a working double, and it's a good working gun (Merkel). I expect my Royal to be no better off sandbags, and I expect it to be impeccable in lines, balance, engraving, and general overall artistry. Many don't appreciate art, and if they're happy who am I to judge? Many do see what it's about too, and Holland & Holland is certainly in the "old master" school of production and quality. It is a level of quality almost forgotten in our assembly line, mass production big retail world today. Some of us find it inspiring watching a relatively small shop buck the pressure and trend to modernize and remain known for what they do best: build arguably the best rifles in the world, painstakingly by hand, in the face of an ever more hurried and rushed world. This sentiment epitomizes everything I truly love about the wild corners of Canada, Africa, and anywhere else time doesn't matter. When you're sleeping under canvas in Zimbabwe iphones, CNC, satellite radio and schedules do not exist. You might as well be on a different planet, you can be in any century you choose. Sharing those moments with a rifle built as they were in the last century, and even the century before, constructed with no sense of urgency or time and built to utter perfection certainly adds to those moments... For me. :) Everyone's different, it's a lot like Whiskey. If you can taste the difference between a good single malt and Black Velvet you probably know what I'm talking about. Those are made in the same contrasting styles of time is no matter, and mass production. Some value it, some don't, the beauty of a free country. :cheers:
 
Yes, It's a nice little cartridge. I almost went for a lee bolt action a while back...

it's just not the right cartridge for your rifle of all rifles.
 
Ardent said:
I have a working double, and it's a good working gun (Merkel). I expect my Royal to be no better off sandbags...
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I would expect the Holland to be much better off the sandbags. I can't remember what sort of groups you said you were getting with the Merkel, but if they were in any way impressive, I would have. The H&H doubles have a reputation for being very well regulated, as long as you take the time to work up loads for your rifle. Brass will be your biggest headache... there's no other existing cartridge that can be used to form cases.

I was digging through my double rifle book, and the load listed there was 77 gr. of IMR 4831 with a 300 gr. bullet. You might also try 70 gr of IMR 4350/300 gr. or 73 gr IMR 4350/270 gr.
 
Ardent said:
I handled an engraved Sabatti when first shopping doubles at a Cabelas in the states (impressive gun rooms they have), and "gaudy" is the first word that came to mind, I was not at all impressed unfortunately. Humans and smoke will still fit tighter than CNC machines, to be sure.
Click to expand...

When they couldn't get them to regulate by building them on a shotgun jig, they ground the muzzles with a Dremel to tip the bullets toward each other. Some were sent back to be redone, with mixed success. I think Cabella's has dropped the line now though are a few in the system.
 
Dogleg said:
When they couldn't get them to regulate by building them on a shotgun jig, they ground the muzzles with a Dremel to tip the bullets toward each other. Some were sent back to be redone, with mixed success. I think Cabella's has dropped the line now though are a few in the system.
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Are you serious?
 
9.3mauser said:
I would expect the Holland to be much better off the sandbags. I can't remember what sort of groups you said you were getting with the Merkel, but if they were in any way impressive, I would have. The H&H doubles have a reputation for being very well regulated, as long as you take the time to work up loads for your rifle. Brass will be your biggest headache... there's no other existing cartridge that can be used to form cases.

I was digging through my double rifle book, and the load listed there was 77 gr. of IMR 4831 with a 300 gr. bullet. You might also try 70 gr of IMR 4350/300 gr. or 73 gr IMR 4350/270 gr.
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Much obliged for the loads, I'll start with H4895 and shoot pairs, as I use that powder for as many things as I can, if I don't find success I'll switch to more classic powders.
 
Ardent said:
Yes, because that is art, and nobody buys a Hollands' Royal for the function. ;) It's more than a rifle, and that's why people pay far over a rifle price. I have a working double, and it's a good working gun (Merkel). I expect my Royal to be no better off sandbags, and I expect it to be impeccable in lines, balance, engraving, and general overall artistry. Many don't appreciate art, and if they're happy who am I to judge? Many do see what it's about too, and Holland & Holland is certainly in the "old master" school of production and quality. It is a level of quality almost forgotten in our assembly line, mass production big retail world today. Some of us find it inspiring watching a relatively small shop buck the pressure and trend to modernize and remain known for what they do best: build arguably the best rifles in the world, painstakingly by hand, in the face of an ever more hurried and rushed world. This sentiment epitomizes everything I truly love about the wild corners of Canada, Africa, and anywhere else time doesn't matter. When you're sleeping under canvas in Zimbabwe iphones, CNC, satellite radio and schedules do not exist. You might as well be on a different planet, you can be in any century you choose. Sharing those moments with a rifle built as they were in the last century, and even the century before, constructed with no sense of urgency or time and built to utter perfection certainly adds to those moments... For me. :) Everyone's different, it's a lot like Whiskey. If you can taste the difference between a good single malt and Black Velvet you probably know what I'm talking about. Those are made in the same contrasting styles of time is no matter, and mass production. Some value it, some don't, the beauty of a free country. :cheers:
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Very well said. Someday I would love to have a nice shotgun. I can't explain it, but I'm drawn to them, and the older the better. Congrats on finding your dream rifle.
Kristian
 
Ardent said:
Yes, because that is art, and nobody buys a Hollands' Royal for the function. ;) It's more than a rifle, and that's why people pay far over a rifle price. I have a working double, and it's a good working gun (Merkel). I expect my Royal to be no better off sandbags, and I expect it to be impeccable in lines, balance, engraving, and general overall artistry. Many don't appreciate art, and if they're happy who am I to judge? Many do see what it's about too, and Holland & Holland is certainly in the "old master" school of production and quality. It is a level of quality almost forgotten in our assembly line, mass production big retail world today. Some of us find it inspiring watching a relatively small shop buck the pressure and trend to modernize and remain known for what they do best: build arguably the best rifles in the world, painstakingly by hand, in the face of an ever more hurried and rushed world. This sentiment epitomizes everything I truly love about the wild corners of Canada, Africa, and anywhere else time doesn't matter. When you're sleeping under canvas in Zimbabwe iphones, CNC, satellite radio and schedules do not exist. You might as well be on a different planet, you can be in any century you choose. Sharing those moments with a rifle built as they were in the last century, and even the century before, constructed with no sense of urgency or time and built to utter perfection certainly adds to those moments... For me. :) Everyone's different, it's a lot like Whiskey. If you can taste the difference between a good single malt and Black Velvet you probably know what I'm talking about. Those are made in the same contrasting styles of time is no matter, and mass production. Some value it, some don't, the beauty of a free country. :cheers:
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I understand your point, and I fully agree in that I appreciate quality, and hand-made quality has a certain aesthetic and emotional appeal that machine-made cannot have. I am also a lover of tradition and of all that is old and represents skillful artistry; that is the essence of “conservative” IMO: to conserve what is good and useful of all that has gone before. But what represents old to us today was once cutting edge and eagerly embraced by forward thinking businessmen of that time. Of course it is a wonderful thing to see what can be made with mostly simple tools and we have inevitably lost sight of that in the developed world. The skills of the best late medieval to 19th century European metal workers for example, are not even approached today, particularly considering the tools available in those times and ours. Heck, some Roman glass colouring and blowing techniques have never been rediscovered or duplicated!

Anyway, I don't wish to hijack your thread or to seem to want to detract from your pleasure! ;) You are fortunate to be able to truly appreciate what you have and to use it. My point was that there is a happy medium between tradition, handwork and business efficiency, and conserving the best of the past does not have to mean using inefficient or antiquated methods or any compromise on quality.

For example, to fit a gun to a customer today, the customer's upper body could & should be digitally scanned in a shooting stance, or perhaps a try-gun created with digital readouts which could then create the stock on a CNC machine. The mechanical try-gun was a great innovation, but things have moved on, greater accuracy and efficiency is now possible. Chiselling out stock inlets is a waste of time and money, they should be CNC machined slightly undersize and then fitted by hand. IMO when a lock is taken out, a precise fit should be seen, not a lot of whittling marks with a close fit only around the lock plate. The goal should be a better quality product at a lower cost for greater market share and greater profitability.

Unfortunately complacency tends to go hand in hand with conservativism and commercial extinction usually follows. The British gun trade, like the British auto industry is a shadow of what it once was. By all means make a gun by choice the way they do in Peshawar through necessity, if the market will justify it, but why make that your only output? Why give up the bulk of the market to others?

The final irony is that thanks to complacency and a lack of capital investment, those brand names which were so famous for so long are now mostly gone or held by foreign interests, including Messrs. Holland & Holland!

All the more reason to buy and enjoy an older one!;)
 
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