BP Cartridge Disappoints? Companion thread to BP barrel cleaning tips

[Londonshooter]

Hard to know where to start this story because it goes back I think to a pre-COVID Oshawa Doublegun Classic when ParksPipes and I first met. Since then we have gotten together a number of times to shoot at his club, or a couple times the sporting clays course in Galt. I'm in London, Pipes is in Bowmanville.
This year at the doublegun classic he had a present for me: a box of 25 brass 12 gauge hulls. Then, we hatch a plan where I'm going to load bismuth over black powder for both of us and in September do a canoe jump shoot for mostly wood ducks and mallards. So we did! And it went famously! Except the birds had plasma shields. Or else we need to have a hard look at these cartridges. Or maybe we can't shoot straight at a straight away flying duck 35 yds away.
Before the hunt I couldn't test my loads because the gun was at the smith's. I picked it up the night before from CJO. The loads I made for me were plastic cut-away hulls, 10 ga., 290 primer, 3 drams Goex FFG, 10 ga. heavy nitro card, lubed felt cushion wad, 1 1/4 oz #5 bismuth, overshot paper card, white glue.
The 12 ga. Pipes loads were Magtech brass hulls, large pistol primers, Goexx FFG, 11 ga. nitro card, 12 ga. lubed fibre wad, 1 1/8 oz Bismuth, 11 ga. overshot card, white glue to seal.
So I don't like to quote load data especially off the top of my head but they were fairly hot, like 3 or 3 1/2 dram loads.
Yeah. More to follow. The first thing I will do is pattern the loads exactly the same and then again but using lead shot. Assuming the same result then can proceed strictly with lead shot because otherwise my bismuth stash is totally shot.

 

[antiqueguy]

I’d pattern with lead and use only bismuth to hunt. I have been told they fly pretty similarly but maybe go up a shot size if you can.

10ga could have more powder I would think somewhere in the range of 110(around 4 drams)-120grains and the same shot charge.

The 12ga I would stick with 3 or so dram and a lesser amount of shot than a standard 3 dram load and in the magtec all 11ga.

A roll crimp on the 10ga may also help bring the velocity up with a more complete burn of the powder. For the brass try different sealants to try to get pressure and velocity up without disrupting the pattern.

 

[iron cat]

I quit using white glue many years ago, I use silicone sealant for all my brass cases now.
My 12 gauge load is 100 (measured ) grains of FFG, 1 1/4 oz of #4 or #2 Bismuth that has been coated with mica dust , one cushion wad with a .035 paper wad on top so the shot does not impact , and another on top of the shot , with a small bead of silicone.
I have cleanly killed geese and ducks with this load out of my Westley Richards and a Pedersoli hammer double.
Cat

 

[Londonshooter]

I quit using white glue many years ago, I use silicone sealant for all my brass cases now.
My 12 gauge load is 100 (measured ) grains of FFG, 1 1/4 oz of #4 or #2 Bismuth that has been coated with mica dust , one cushion wad with a .035 paper wad on top so the shot does not impact , and another on top of the shot , with a small bead of silicone.
I have cleanly killed geese and ducks with this load out of my Westley Richards and a Pedersoli hammer double.
Cat

Silicone caulking, Cat?
This is one of my first avenues to check - that I don't have a number of pellets stuck to the glue on the underside of the overshot card that blows the pattern.

 

[iron cat]

Silicone caulking, Cat?
This is one of my first avenues to check - that I don't have a number of pellets stuck to the glue on the underside of the overshot card that blows the pattern.

You just need a very small bead, and with a properly sizes OS wad , the silicone does not migrate .
I kill birds as well as the big guns over the decoys
Cat

 

[Ol' Flinter]

I load my BP cartridges the same as a load for a muzzle loader: that is a "Square load": an EQUAL VOLUME of powder and shot with enough card and filler wads to allow for a rolled or star crimp as desired with paper hulls or a secured over-shot card if brass hulls. My killer mallard load is 3 1/4 drams FFG or Pyrodex RS equivalent with 1 1/4 oz of Bi #4 now, but lead #4s back when lead was legal. I have killed more than a hundred SK greenheads with that load so it is proven. Your 10 ga load seems light or at least slow. Produce a "Square " load of at least 1 1/4 oz and 3 1/2 or 3 3/4 drams to get the velocity up.

Here is a suggestion to compare the penetrating power of your loads. Laminate 10 or so layers of corrugated cardboard and shoot a "modern" #4 lead load ( approx. 1200 fps old Canuck, Maxum or Imperial Special Long Range) at say 30 or 35 yds and count the number of layers penetrated by 66% or 75% of the pellets to establish your standard. Then work up a BP load that gives the same penetration with lead #4s. You might have to bump up the powder charge by 1/4 dram but the velocities should be close to equal. Once you have the correct recipe using (cheaper) lead, confirm your results with a couple of Bi #4 loads.
Keep us posted on progress...

 

[Ashcroft]

I’ve been doing these for years, with the proper equivalent load the results of black powder and smokeless powder loads are indistinguishable. For me.
I also use a square load, an equal VOLUME of black powder and shot. In a 12 this will usually be 3-3 1/4 drams of FFG and 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 oz of lead shot, decided by the proof marking. I use a vintage adjustable combination powder/shot dipper type measure for both. I actually weigh nothing.
For ten gauge the load stamped on my old boxes of Canuck, Maxum, etc are marked 4 1/4 Dr and 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 oz of shot. Again I use the adjustable measure.
Brass cases use the same loads, just slightly larger wads, ( eg 9 for 10 and 11 for 12 gauge) and are much easier to clean and last forever.
Bismuth loads the same as lead by volume but requires larger shot ( less pellets) to maintain killing power at longer ranges.
I use card overshot wads, cushion wads to adjust total fill height, tightly roll crimped on paper, compressed and lightly glued with white glue on brass. Good compression with tight crimps are essential for consistently good velocities with black powder.
Many of these vintage black powder guns have little or no choke which the bigger payload of the 10 helps to offset.

 

[iron cat]

Black powder and Bismuth works great!
Cat

 

[antiqueguy]

Has anyone tried the sky chief load with brass shells It tightens patterns in muzzleloading shotgun. Load your powder a nitro card then shot on top a over shot card and a oil(canola or olive)soaked cushion wad on top.

 

[8ball]

Has anyone tried the sky chief load with brass shells It tightens patterns in muzzleloading shotgun. Load your powder a nitro card then shot on top a over shot card and a oil(canola or olive)soaked cushion wad on top.

I do, in my flintlock. It works.

 

[MC One Shot]

I do as well in my ML double barrel shotgun... Works well.....

 

[antiqueguy]

I do as well in my ML double barrel shotgun... Works well.....

I might have to experiment with it in brass hulls see if it does any better or worse.

 

[antiqueguy]

Well looks like I may be joking the club. Will be trying different wad positions ect to see if I can make patters and better or worse.

 

[Londonshooter]

Patterning results from round 1 of testing

Well, I had some time to do up a couple loads and find out what the pattern board says. On our hunt I was shooting 10 gauge in plastic hulls, Mike was shooting his Greener 12 ga using brass cartridges. Today I played around a bit with the 12 ga loads.
The starting load - the Bismuth that Mike hunted with:

Magtech 12 ga. 2 1/2” brass hulls
Federal 150 Large Pistol Primer
3 ¼ Dram Goex FFG
11 Ga Nitro Card
(2) 11 Ga Fibre cushion wad
1 1/8 oz #5/#6 Bismuth Shot (Winchester) (31.9 grams)
11 ga. Overshot card
white glue seal

The cartridges fired at patterning board:
1: original load as above
2: same as above but with lead shot, not Bismuth
3: same as #2, but with overshot card siliconed, not white glue
4: same as #3, but with 3 drams BP, not 3 1/4 drams
5: same as #1, the original bismuth hunting load
6: smokeless low pressure 1oz #6 lead load
7: GAMEBORE Black powder 1oz 2.5" felt wad factory load #6

Scoring was by pellet count within a 25" circle trying to capture the most pellets. Also the pattern was subjectively rated for quality, for instance how many 3" holes are in the pattern (the one in the image was scored a 2 out of 5

In order of most pellets who 'won'?

#7 scored 136 pellets, 2/5 pattern
#6 with 115 and 2/5
#4 with 109 and 3/5
#2 with 106 and 2/5
#5 with 102, 2/5
#1 with 67, 2/5
#3 with 66, 1/5

 

[Londonshooter]

Should have said, pattern boards were 30 yds and shooting from a rest. The test gun ideally would have been the Greener but filling in today was this Edwin Roberts 1880's hammergun using the 'choke' barrel

 

[iron cat]

Well, I had some time to do up a couple loads and find out what the pattern board says. On our hunt I was shooting 10 gauge in plastic hulls, Mike was shooting his Greener 12 ga using brass cartridges. Today I played around a bit with the 12 ga loads.
The starting load - the Bismuth that Mike hunted with:

Magtech 12 ga. 2 1/2” brass hulls
Federal 150 Large Pistol Primer
3 ¼ Dram Goex FFG
11 Ga Nitro Card
(2) 11 Ga Fibre cushion wad
1 1/8 oz #5/#6 Bismuth Shot (Winchester) (31.9 grams)
11 ga. Overshot card
white glue seal

The cartridges fired at patterning board:
1: original load as above
2: same as above but with lead shot, not Bismuth
3: same as #2, but with overshot card siliconed, not white glue
4: same as #3, but with 3 drams BP, not 3 1/4 drams
5: same as #1, the original bismuth hunting load
6: smokeless low pressure 1oz #6 lead load
7: GAMEBORE Black powder 1oz 2.5" felt wad factory load #6

Scoring was by pellet count within a 25" circle trying to capture the most pellets. Also the pattern was subjectively rated for quality, for instance how many 3" holes are in the pattern (the one in the image was scored a 2 out of 5

In order of most pellets who 'won'?

#7 scored 136 pellets, 2/5 pattern
#6 with 115 and 2/5
#4 with 109 and 3/5
#2 with 106 and 2/5
#5 with 102, 2/5
#1 with 67, 2/5
#3 with 66, 1/5

Well done test for sure Londonshooter!
I tend to use 1 1/4 oz of shot when shooting the 3 1/4 drams of powder, it seems to help the patterns a bit, although I only tested it on clay birds and real birds, not on the pattern board.
Interesting side note: When lead was still legal, one of BPI's best killing loads for ducks was 1 1/4oz of #4 at 1,200 FPS, yet that particular powder/wad shot combination yielded some of their worst results on the pattern board!
Did you have any issues with the Bismuth clumping up?
I found that mica dust reduced that .
Cat

 

[Londonshooter]

Hmm.
Well, my impression overall is that none of the loads are very nice at 30 yards. I was kind of surprised at the gamebore not having a better pattern. It seemed the only positive trend I noticed (and small sample size) is that the reduced load, 3 drams vs. 3 1/4, showed a decent pellet count and not a badly distributed shot pattern. So maybe these are all suffering from being too hot and I should try 2 3/4 dram with 1 1/8oz bismuth or lead loads?

 

[iron cat]

Hmm.
Well, my impression overall is that none of the loads are very nice at 30 yards. I was kind of surprised at the gamebore not having a better pattern. It seemed the only positive trend I noticed (and small sample size) is that the reduced load, 3 drams vs. 3 1/4, showed a decent pellet count and not a badly distributed shot pattern. So maybe these are all suffering from being too hot and I should try 2 3/4 dram with 1 1/8oz bismuth or lead loads?

Exactly the reason why I add a bit more shot to my heavy loads!
I used the 2 3/4 dram loads quite a bit this fall on our yearly pheasant hunt down south , and of course ruffed grouse, with excellent results. ( Still hunting ruffies until January up here.)

Not sure why, but it has been theorized that the lighter shot charge is moving too fast and blows the pattern out. Some think it is because the wads blow out the patterns because they come out too fast with the lighter shot charge, but that has always been suspect to me.
Whatever the reason, I have resigned myself to not trying to figure it out and " just do it" ! LOL
I would suggest you Load some up and try them on a skeet field , you may have renewed faith in your loads.
Cat

 

[9.3 Hunter]

Interesting read -

 

[Ol' Flinter]

I agree with Iron Cat: increase your shot charge to 1 1/4 oz of shot, especially for waterfowl. That's more like a "Square Load". Muzzle velocity should still be close to 1200 fps.