Brakes and Bipods

I just read a post, made by Bob Galloway about 2 months ago on a long range FB group, that poo-pooed Atlas bipods for precision shooting. He talked about preload consistency issues with Atlas bipods, which showed up as vertical spread with his customer's rifles. Spread that disappeared when switching to a different bipod. Some people agreed with him, and I've seen other people hint at it on the net, but most people on the net are quite pro-Atlas.
I have an Atlas v8 for a year now , and I've never been able to get quite as tight of groups with the Atlas that I've done off bags using the same rifles. With most of the spread, IIRC, being vertical. I just dismissed it as me not having as good a day, but now I'm wondering if maybe it's not all me.

Anyone else have any expertise to share?

Vertical would show up with people who are inconsistently applying the fundamentals to each shot.

Not a problem if you consistently apply the fundamentals shot after shot. Takes discipline and practice, and of course no one is perfect.

If you are shooting a game where precision is the ultimate game, then you may want to purchase a bipod which takes out any human error. If you are more on the field/practical side of things, not so much an issue and practice and apply the fundamentals.

Another area where vertical is showing up is with the long unsupported ARCA/RRS rails that are started to being added underneath stocks and chassis. The slim ones that overhang the stock/chassis by a bit, with the bipod at the very end, may show vertical stringing due to the ARCA rail flexing under recoil. Not an issue with the really stiff ARCA rails (more so on the slim universal ones - refer to picture of Jerry's rifle to see what I'm talking about) nor when the bipod is mounted more under the rifle.
 
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I found my Ckyepod to be ideal(as usual) this past weekend at the Meaford PRS match, as did most of the guys who were borrowing them (and then snagged some from the prize table). Your point about the narrow footprint is valid but you can get a Ckyepod as narrow as a Harris if needed plus I find if you just slide it fore or aft to suit the situation it works. Being able to drop it at a moment's notice is a great feature and why I have the adapter on mine that lets me run the RRS pic/dove throw lever.

The Ckye-pod is really hard to beat in the field/practical disciplines. Very well made and a big range of movement.

Another bipod that is starting to be well received is the new TBAC bipod. Never used one, but it does like nice. I can't see myself replacing my Ckye-pod though.

As for price, you get what you pay for. As rugbydave lays out, you are almost there if you trick out a Harris. And with the Harris you still have a poorly made bipod out of stamped metal which is generally not centered. Much better quality and features with a Ckye-pod.

As with everything, you get what you pay for. A Harris is certainly useable, but there are better and more quality bipods available.
 
Another area where vertical is showing up is with the long unsupported ARCA/RRS rails that are started to being added underneath stocks and chassis. The slim ones that overhang the stock/chassis by a bit, with the bipod at the very end, may show vertical stringing due to the ARCA rail flexing under recoil. Not an issue with the really stiff ARCA rails (more so on the slim universal ones - refer to picture of Jerry's rifle to see what I'm talking about) nor when the bipod is mounted more under the rifle.

Frank Galli (Sniper's Hide) talks about this very thing on his podcast regarding a Alaskan Rifle Clinic he was instructing.
A student was having issues with vertical stringing and had his bipod mount on an extended ACRA rail that protruded IIRC, 3" past the end of the stock.
Once they moved the bipod back to under the stock the vertical stringing disappeared.
 

Frank Galli (Sniper's Hide) talks about this very thing on his podcast regarding a Alaskan Rifle Clinic he was instructing.
A student was having issues with vertical stringing and had his bipod mount on an extended ACRA rail that protruded IIRC, 3" past the end of the stock.
Once they moved the bipod back to under the stock the vertical stringing disappeared.

Yup, it's a problem that shows up on the thin universal ARCA/RRS rails, with these rails being so prevalent. People think they are making their rifle more stable by putting the bipod out as far as possible, but end up inducing issues which shows up on targets down range when done in conjunction with those slim unsupported rails.

This is the reason why the JAE rails were made to have that triangular shape in the portion of the rail not supported by the chassis. Creates stiffness in the rail to completely mitigate that very issue. It was subtle things like these little design cues, as well as their excellent CS and manufacturing that made them such a great chassis company. It's a shame they are no longer around.

61767916_116974279532033_5248096651858486170_n.jpg
 
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The best for muzzle control is JP. https://www.jprifles.com/1.4.2_re.php I ve spent a lot time trying to find one that keeps muzzle flip to a minimum. This one is the best and ..... they ship to Canada.

The best thing anyone can do for muzzle control is to properly apply the fundamentals to each shot. You shouldn't have much "muzzle flip" if you are properly applying the fundamentals in each shot. Recoil is a linear response, and any "muzzle flip" is the rifles recoil exploiting any weaknesses in your fundamentals.

If you are experiencing much "muzzle flip" I would recommend proper training over buying an aid to mask deficiencies in skillset. It will be money much better spent.
 
After reading a few posts, I am sure glad I have a wee bit of experience setting up my gear... hate to loose points cause I am putting stuff in the wrong place :)

maybe some should come out to an F class match or two and put rds on paper.... maybe they might learn a bit about their gear and form wrt to vertical at distance.

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This brake sits on most of my rifles. Muzzle flip is near zip .. of course, proper stock fit, proper bipod and useage all come into play but this will go a long ways to taming the energy of the bang

Jerry
 

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I'm assuming you are talking about my posts.

My reference to your rifles was your ARCA rails, which are not dissimilar to the ones that experience vertical stringing issues, with the bipod placed near the end. If you were to place your bipods at the end of the rails on your rifles (which are thin, and unsupported once out from underneath the stock), I wouldn't be surprised if you experienced vertical stringing issues, like others whom have a pretty much duplicate setup have experienced.

You don't need to shoot F-class to figure that out, as others are finding out for themselves.
 

Frank Galli (Sniper's Hide) talks about this very thing on his podcast regarding a Alaskan Rifle Clinic he was instructing.
A student was having issues with vertical stringing and had his bipod mount on an extended ACRA rail that protruded IIRC, 3" past the end of the stock.
Once they moved the bipod back to under the stock the vertical stringing disappeared.

Pity they didn't have a different type of bipod to mount in the same location. Perfect example of how bipod flex can lead to undesired results.

Jerry
 
Pity they didn't have a different type of bipod to mount in the same location. Perfect example of how bipod flex can lead to undesired results.

Jerry

Or just move the bipod back slightly - much easier and cheaper fix, not to mention instantaneous results from doing so.

An F-class style bipod is not the best choice for every application, such as for what the majority of shooters are doing when they are attending a Frank Galli/Marc class in Alaska.
 
As for timing muzzle brakes...can’t you just grind or file down the shoulder of the brake so it meets the desired alignment with the rifle? I have precision armament washers that time my brakes, but would rather not use them if this grinding trick works.
 
As for price, you get what you pay for. As rugbydave lays out, you are almost there if you trick out a Harris. And with the Harris you still have a poorly made bipod out of stamped metal which is generally not centered. Much better quality and features with a Ckye-pod.

As with everything, you get what you pay for. A Harris is certainly useable, but there are better and more quality bipods available. .

I would categorically argue against this point all day long as there is a certain segment of the shooting community that seems to think that more expensive always equals better and that is simply not the case. Especially for 99 percent of the guys out there and maybe 60-70 percent of the competitor types.

First off I am not a fan boy of any particular brand, but I recognize when something is suitable or not.

The Harris bipod stamped or not functions well within a certain role, just as the Cyke Pod... or Atlas within a certain role... but not the same role... exactly … Flipping legs up and down QUICKLY for example.. the Harris beats them all. Metal stamped or not.

If you are looking for a piece of art to display wonderful craftsmanship go ahead and drop $500 on your US made product of choice, (Not that it should matter to a Canadian) but that does not necessarily make it function any better in practical terms.... Meaning make more hits in less time.

The genius of the humble Harris is the springs on the legs that take the play and wiggle out of the legs. There is very little give under preload as a result. Any bipod that wiggles is problematic at best so that's the highest priority in my opinion.

Not to say that Harris is the perfect bipod for every situation, but it has its place... And furthermore you can buy cheaper Chinese versions that are practically the same. (For all but the most abusive.)

Another example is the MagPul slings they sell for like $60+ here in Canada but you can find the identical sling for 8 bucks on ebay out of China with free shipping.... So paying more for the actual Magpul version is just classic case of fanboyism.

Slings and bipods are simple creatures that are being progressively over designed of late and it's easy to get drawn into a sense that expensive is somehow better.... all you are often doing is setting yourself up for buyers remorse.

Without dogging any particular product, I have spotted a variety of practical weaknesses with almost every bipod.... So one single bipod is not perfect for every application. Price aside... You always need to decide where to compromise.
 
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If I had to compromise on a bipod the Harris would be lowest I would go. Cheap knock offs always break.

For quite a while I shot off a bag. Either my backpack or a front bag and It worked really well until I could justify the expense of an atlas BT - 10. Bipods matter. They will definitely contribute to accuracy. MY BT - 10 has been awesome and I never regret buying it. I have the QD so it goes on all my rifles and transfers quickly ... no hassle at all. After a couple thousand rounds it still functions perfectly and still looks new.

I am considering purchasing another bipod . The MDT Ckye is looking pretty cool :)
 
As for timing muzzle brakes...can’t you just grind or file down the shoulder of the brake so it meets the desired alignment with the rifle? I have precision armament washers that time my brakes, but would rather not use them if this grinding trick works.

I timed a muzzle brake by removing material on a lathe. Filling or grinding would be difficult to keep it squared up
 
As for timing muzzle brakes...can’t you just grind or file down the shoulder of the brake so it meets the desired alignment with the rifle? I have precision armament washers that time my brakes, but would rather not use them if this grinding trick works.

As was said, grind away. There is nothing special about fitting a brake. It is a big 'nut' that you time on a thread... crush washer, jam nut, fancy hand thingy, machine to fit... all do exactly the same thing. Arguably a machine fit timing is best as there is less chance for things to loosen and if the brake is removed, installation is in the same place.

And a well blended brake also looks the best.... if looks matter.

I just dont want to crush the muzzle so am very leery about clamps on brakes....

Jerry
 
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I was reading a thread a while back where a timed break could not be unthreaded and had to be machined off. So there's that...

With that in mind a crush washer does not actually get tight and would have a low risk of getting stuck.... The same for the split ring design like Cadex MX1 just as long as you don't over tighten the screw.

BTW Cadex recommends that the break be removed for barrel cleaning and you are not likely to do that if its timed and likely gorilla cranked on.
 
i have the same rifle, with a 24 inch barrel, i picked up at epps a while back.
they installed a custom brake made just for them, and am more than impressed with its functionality. best 50.00 bucks I've spent on a firearm in ages.
 
I would categorically argue against this point all day long as there is a certain segment of the shooting community that seems to think that more expensive always equals better and that is simply not the case. Especially for 99 percent of the guys out there and maybe 60-70 percent of the competitor types.

First off I am not a fan boy of any particular brand, but I recognize when something is suitable or not.

The Harris bipod stamped or not functions well within a certain role, just as the Cyke Pod... or Atlas within a certain role... but not the same role... exactly … Flipping legs up and down QUICKLY for example.. the Harris beats them all. Metal stamped or not.

If you are looking for a piece of art to display wonderful craftsmanship go ahead and drop $500 on your US made product of choice, (Not that it should matter to a Canadian) but that does not necessarily make it function any better in practical terms.... Meaning make more hits in less time.

The genius of the humble Harris is the springs on the legs that take the play and wiggle out of the legs. There is very little give under preload as a result. Any bipod that wiggles is problematic at best so that's the highest priority in my opinion.

Not to say that Harris is the perfect bipod for every situation, but it has its place... And furthermore you can buy cheaper Chinese versions that are practically the same. (For all but the most abusive.)

Another example is the MagPul slings they sell for like $60+ here in Canada but you can find the identical sling for 8 bucks on ebay out of China with free shipping.... So paying more for the actual Magpul version is just classic case of fanboyism.

Slings and bipods are simple creatures that are being progressively over designed of late and it's easy to get drawn into a sense that expensive is somehow better.... all you are often doing is setting yourself up for buyers remorse.

Without dogging any particular product, I have spotted a variety of practical weaknesses with almost every bipod.... So one single bipod is not perfect for every application. Price aside... You always need to decide where to compromise.

I'll start off by saying no one bipod is perfect for every situation. I haven't implied in any of my posts that a Ckye-Pod is the best bipod for everyone or every scenario. I merely stated that I believe the Ckye-Pod to be the best rendition of a field bipod to date, with maybe the TBAC as a close contender. I stand by that, and if you ever shoot an actual field PRS match where you shoot a lot of stages working against the environment to get the shot off, such as a Carl Taylor Washington state match, you will see what I mean.

The Harris is an okay bipod, I have a couple. Yes it deploys very fast, but it has a lot of limitations. It has poor build quality, and limited options to mount to your rifle unless you want to purchase aftermarket accessories if you want to say install it to a pic or ARCA rail. Unfortunately due to the design of the Harris, these aftermarket parts are only so strong, and I've seen numerous ones break - usually at a really bad time like in the middle of a stage. They have very limited range of adjustments - usually only 3" of vertical adjustment, no pan feature, poor cant tension feature, can't adjust the width of the bipod legs, or angle the bipod legs, and they fold only one way.

I've used a Harris a lot. It's plenty capable off of a bench or prone when you don't have high grass in front of you to contend with. But it is very limited in features and capabilities, and this weakness shows up when shooting on differing terrain in field matches.

The Ckye-pod was designed for field matches, and it has a very extensive range of adjustments. Legs can be moved in 45° angles, width of the bipod can be very narrow to very wide, legs have a huge vertical adjustment - you can be almost flat to the ground or super tall up if you have to peek over some tall grass. Adjustable pan and cant. Legs extend rapidly as they are spring assisted, and very quick to collapse. Can be ordered with a Pic or ARCA/RRS direct mount. finally it includes a built in barricade stop. This makes for a very versatile package, which was designed to overcome many challenges that shooting in the field present. So I would absolutely contend that it does in fact "make it function better in practical terms" in the right scenarios.

Yes, it's $500. No, it's not for everyone. But it is manufactured to a much higher quality, and is much more feature rich than a Harris. In that vein, you absolutely do "get what you pay for". The rub is, if you just shoot off a bench or a concrete pad, you won't realize the benefits this bipod has to offer.

BTW, having "slack" in the bipod is an intentional thing done by the designers, it aids in recoil management when used in conjunction with proper applications of fundamentals. All modern field bipods that I know of - Atlas, Ckye-Pod, TBAC, etc are designed with some "slack" built into the system. Those that consider it a flaw are those that don't consistently load the bipod nor utilize proper fundamentals when shooting. Operator error, not a design issue. But I guess improper or lack of proper applications of fundamentals has people looking for silly gear solutions rather than correcting their actual shooting skills like this:


If a Harris works great for you, then keep on rocking on. No need to spend more money if it won't provide a benefit to your shooting needs, that I agree with. But let's not pretend that a Harris is just as good of quality and feature rich as a Ckye-pod because you don't want to spend the money nor see the perceived benefits.

PS - the Ckye-pod is a Canadian bipod now being manufactured and sold by MDT.

And I won't even get started on knock-off bipods, I wish those that promoted knock-off bipods (or that of any product) received an instant ban...
 
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I was reading a thread a while back where a timed break could not be unthreaded and had to be machined off. So there's that...

With that in mind a crush washer does not actually get tight and would have a low risk of getting stuck.... The same for the split ring design like Cadex MX1 just as long as you don't over tighten the screw.

BTW Cadex recommends that the break be removed for barrel cleaning and you are not likely to do that if its timed and likely gorilla cranked on.

That would be due to a gunsmith sucking at his job, and not threading the barrel correctly to 3A specs. All should be doing this, but there's more than a few gunsmiths around that aren't very competent.

Good gunsmiths use these to verify threads:

thread_ring_gage_134_800x.jpg


Bad gunsmiths just say "close enough, that should work". That ring gauge would make a lot of honest gunsmiths among us, and certainly make a few sweat.

The other option could be due to poor machining from a cheap brake. The better muzzle brakes are made on CNC machines and held to tight tolerances, the threads aren't a problem. Cheaper brakes made with cheaper manufacturing processes and without the proper QA/QC can and do suffer from occasional poor thread jobs.

This is a non-issue if you have a competent gunsmith and a good quality brake.

You can use your crush washer method, but it's ugly and a crutch for poor workmanship.

Again, you get what you pay for.
 
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I would categorically argue against this point all day long as there is a certain segment of the shooting community that seems to think that more expensive always equals better and that is simply not the case. Especially for 99 percent of the guys out there and maybe 60-70 percent of the competitor types.

First off I am not a fan boy of any particular brand, but I recognize when something is suitable or not.

The Harris bipod stamped or not functions well within a certain role, just as the Cyke Pod... or Atlas within a certain role... but not the same role... exactly … Flipping legs up and down QUICKLY for example.. the Harris beats them all. Metal stamped or not.

If you are looking for a piece of art to display wonderful craftsmanship go ahead and drop $500 on your US made product of choice, (Not that it should matter to a Canadian) but that does not necessarily make it function any better in practical terms.... Meaning make more hits in less time.

The genius of the humble Harris is the springs on the legs that take the play and wiggle out of the legs. There is very little give under preload as a result. Any bipod that wiggles is problematic at best so that's the highest priority in my opinion.

Not to say that Harris is the perfect bipod for every situation, but it has its place... And furthermore you can buy cheaper Chinese versions that are practically the same. (For all but the most abusive.)

Another example is the MagPul slings they sell for like $60+ here in Canada but you can find the identical sling for 8 bucks on ebay out of China with free shipping.... So paying more for the actual Magpul version is just classic case of fanboyism.

Slings and bipods are simple creatures that are being progressively over designed of late and it's easy to get drawn into a sense that expensive is somehow better.... all you are often doing is setting yourself up for buyers remorse.

Without dogging any particular product, I have spotted a variety of practical weaknesses with almost every bipod.... So one single bipod is not perfect for every application. Price aside... You always need to decide where to compromise.

Interesting post...

I've run Harris bipods for years, nothing wrong with them but a Ckye-Pod is simply a better, more versatile tool for a competitive shooter, especially if said shooter shoots field matches. I know this because I shoot lots of matches every year, PRS, NRL, RTC (field matches). As I've said before, a Ckye-Pod isn't cheap but neither is a Harris once you add spikes, Atlas adapters, extensions, a pod-loc and an Arca/pic adapter. I know this because I have 2x Harris bipods setup that way. Now whether or not the advantages that a Ckye-Pod gives a shooter are worth the added expense is only something that the shooter can determine, to me it makes sense. Certainly makes a lot more sense than carrying around 2 different bipods like some people seem to advocate.

As far as advocating for using knockoffs (also known as forgeries or fakes) and accusing those who use the actual products of being "fanboys", give your head a shake. Wanting the people/company who spent the time designing/bringing to market a product to get a well-deserved return on their investment doesn't make someone a "fanboy" but advocating supporting (with your dollars) a bunch of Chi-com ripoff artists who blatantly steal the designs of other companies and sell them for a pittance does make you, at best, "ethically challenged".
 
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