Brass - FL Size or Neck Size????
- Thread starter BarneyRubble
- Start date
safehunter
Regular
- Location
- South Western Onterrible
this should be a poll
neck for me
neck for me
It is not black and white, it depends on the rifle.
Military rifles, in particular the 303 Lee Enfield's, were made with lots of clearance in the chambers and often had lengthy head space, so the cartridge could fall in the mud but still go in the rifle.
With this type of rifle the life of reloaded brass will be very few cycles, if they are full length sized.
However, a great many bolt action rifles, especially the newer ones, have tight chambers and close tolerance on head space. You will gain nothing on brass life by only neck sizing these.
You will have better ammunition, less grief, just as long of brass life and a good of better accuracy, if you full length resize every time.
Military rifles, in particular the 303 Lee Enfield's, were made with lots of clearance in the chambers and often had lengthy head space, so the cartridge could fall in the mud but still go in the rifle.
With this type of rifle the life of reloaded brass will be very few cycles, if they are full length sized.
However, a great many bolt action rifles, especially the newer ones, have tight chambers and close tolerance on head space. You will gain nothing on brass life by only neck sizing these.
You will have better ammunition, less grief, just as long of brass life and a good of better accuracy, if you full length resize every time.
Try to search for BigedP51 (?). He's covered this many times and gives a very nice picture complete reply. If you can't locate the reply on a past forum just contact him. He's a very nice guy and one of the best when it comes to knowledge on loading issues. By the way, many (if not most) long range target shooters usually FL size their brass.
I'm not an expert but I full length resize the vast majority of my brass with minimum shoulder bump and have never had a case head separation in over 46 years of reloading. I also think too much of what bench rest shooters do with their custom made tight chambered rifles filters down to us and people take it as gospel.
I copied the posting below for two reasons, Kevin Tomas of Team Lapua USA and the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistics test lab knows far more than the vast majority of us here in this forum. And I belong to the rat turd in the violin case club.
The average shooter with a off the shelf factory made rifle and average quality Remchester brass is better off full length resizing.
A full length resized case is supported in the rear by the bolt face and by the bullet in the throat of the chamber and has "wiggle room" for the bullet to be self aligning with the axis of the bore. And the body of the case has no steering/aligning effects on the cartridge case and the bore. If you do not have a perfectly made cartridge case when it is fired the thin side of the case will expand more on one side and warp. And if you just neck size this warped case it will be out of alignment with the axis of the bore and shoot bigger groups.
The full length resized case minimizes poor case alignment if the case is warped and distorted after being fired. So it boils down to how many of you have perfect chambers and brass with perfectly made case wall and neck thicknesses.
The Rifleman's Journal
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
"In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling. Additionally, I place a high value on easy bolt operation and true full length sizing helps that quite a bit. I favor easy bolt operation as a prone shooter because I keep the rifle in my shoulder for the entire string and struggling with the bolt not only can shift the buttplate (always with adverse consequences) but it is also a distraction from my attention to mirage and wind flags which ideally occupies all of the non-aiming time."
There are many good articles on reloading below and even bushing dies can cause excessive runout when reducing the case neck by over .005 at a time. Read "Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity" its a very good read as are any of his reloading tips are.
The Rifleman's Journal
Index of Articles
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/p/articles-index.html
I copied the posting below for two reasons, Kevin Tomas of Team Lapua USA and the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistics test lab knows far more than the vast majority of us here in this forum. And I belong to the rat turd in the violin case club.
The average shooter with a off the shelf factory made rifle and average quality Remchester brass is better off full length resizing.
A full length resized case is supported in the rear by the bolt face and by the bullet in the throat of the chamber and has "wiggle room" for the bullet to be self aligning with the axis of the bore. And the body of the case has no steering/aligning effects on the cartridge case and the bore. If you do not have a perfectly made cartridge case when it is fired the thin side of the case will expand more on one side and warp. And if you just neck size this warped case it will be out of alignment with the axis of the bore and shoot bigger groups.
The full length resized case minimizes poor case alignment if the case is warped and distorted after being fired. So it boils down to how many of you have perfect chambers and brass with perfectly made case wall and neck thicknesses.
The Rifleman's Journal
Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html
"In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling. Additionally, I place a high value on easy bolt operation and true full length sizing helps that quite a bit. I favor easy bolt operation as a prone shooter because I keep the rifle in my shoulder for the entire string and struggling with the bolt not only can shift the buttplate (always with adverse consequences) but it is also a distraction from my attention to mirage and wind flags which ideally occupies all of the non-aiming time."
There are many good articles on reloading below and even bushing dies can cause excessive runout when reducing the case neck by over .005 at a time. Read "Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity" its a very good read as are any of his reloading tips are.
The Rifleman's Journal
Index of Articles
http://riflemansjournal.########.com/p/articles-index.html
Last edited:
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I only ever neck size unless it's for use in a semi-auto or for a dangerous game rifle.
- Location
- Haliburton County, Central Ontario
If you own a BLR you will appreciate that ONLY a full length resize will work in your chamber. On the .270WSM I even had to remove 0.008" from the shell holder so the die would move the shoulder back enough to chamber. Even then I chamber all my hunting rounds once in advance of the season just to avoid unpleasant surprises in the field.
Gentlemen, this is not a black and white, all or nothing issue...........there are many varying shades of grey in this issue as well. I suspect many who claim to neck size only, do in fact partial size. I personally partial size virtually all my brass, I run my FL die in until I can just barely feel resistance against camming my bolt down. This means I am in fact full length sizing to my chamber and may be touching the shoulder back just a couple thou. I want to know every cartridge will go into the rifle and the bolt will close relatively easy, so not really "the rat turd in the violin case" but 100% reliable functioning without creating excess headspace. Given die and chamber tolerances it is very possible to create an excess headspace problem, and this is an even greater possibility with belted magnums, as chamber and die dimensions ahead of the belt are even more liberal. I do not use the belt on my magnum cartridges to headspace but adjust my die accordingly to just bump the shoulder as my bolt closes into battery. This setting should size my case body just a touch so that it does not contact the chamber walls and create an alignment issue but also does not set the shoulder back enough to cause case stretch in the web area and thus cause head separations in a few firings (in my case before the primer pockets grow until useless). I believe this to be the best method of sizing brass unless one has several rifles in the same chambering and wishes to use the same load in all his rifles. In this case I would size to the smallest (tightest) chamber and go from there.
True neck sizing can only be achieved with a special die specifically designed to size the neck only and thus called a "neck sizing" die, these are made by all the die manufactures and come in real handy when wildcatting, but beyond that I do not use them in general loading of hunting ammo.
It would seem that too many loaders have adopted too many bench techniques in a quest for a 1/2 MOA hunting rifle and have forsaken 100% reliability in doing so. Any rifle capable of 1 MOA is capable of hitting a ram in the HEART at 500 mtrs if the shooter does his part and knows his cartridge intimately. So I have to ask what is the point of 1/2 MOA accuracy if 100% reliability and/or 200 fps velocity is sacrificed to achieve it..........unless of course one is only killing paper.
True neck sizing can only be achieved with a special die specifically designed to size the neck only and thus called a "neck sizing" die, these are made by all the die manufactures and come in real handy when wildcatting, but beyond that I do not use them in general loading of hunting ammo.
It would seem that too many loaders have adopted too many bench techniques in a quest for a 1/2 MOA hunting rifle and have forsaken 100% reliability in doing so. Any rifle capable of 1 MOA is capable of hitting a ram in the HEART at 500 mtrs if the shooter does his part and knows his cartridge intimately. So I have to ask what is the point of 1/2 MOA accuracy if 100% reliability and/or 200 fps velocity is sacrificed to achieve it..........unless of course one is only killing paper.
Thanks for all the replys. I have guns with chambers that are tight and others that are not so tight. I have had a few rounds that were neck sized but would not chamber, so have gone back to FL sizing. Some shoot MOA and some shoot a little better, depends more on me than the guns some days as well. All of my guns are primarily for hunting so reliability is first and foremost along with being able to make shots out to 300 yards plus with confidence.
How many loading do you guys normally get out of FL sized brass, I am loading for 300WM, 7mmRM, 30-06, .243 and 22-250 right now.
How many loading do you guys normally get out of FL sized brass, I am loading for 300WM, 7mmRM, 30-06, .243 and 22-250 right now.
I partially size my 7mmstw brass , and I usually toss it after 6-8 loadings. On the other hand the brass that I neck size with my neck bushing dies, and anneal every few firings lasts over 20 firings.
I have 30-30 cases over 25 years old and they only die of split necks and the primers always protrude from the rear of the case. Meaning at lower pressures like the 30-30 the brass is not over stressed by higher chamber pressures and does not stretch the meet the bolt face when fired.
If the cases are resized with the minimum shoulder bump a case will last until the primer pocket stretches and becomes too loose to hold your primers.
The type cases you use and how they are made have a great deal to do with case life. Below on the right and left are U.S. Military Lake City 5.56 cases and they have a thicker base web area than the commercial .223 case in the middle. The lake City cases are made to higher standards, and the brass is harder in the base web area. The Federal cases are made from a softer brass and not as thick, meaning the Federal cases will fail sooner than the military Lake City cases.
The .308 case below were fired in a brand new Savage rifle and full length resized as per the dies instructions. Meaning the press reached cam over with the die making hard contact with the shell holder. The example below is a "ball park" figure because the dies were not setup for "minimum" shoulder bump (.001 to .002) and you must also remember your chamber and resizing dies can vary in size and they both play a part in case life. As an example I have a Lee .223 full length die that sizes the base of the case smaller than my RCBS small base die does. And this same Lee die will push the shoulder back further than any other .223/5.56 die I have when set up per the dies instructions.
At the link below you will be able to see the makeup of the various brands of brass, you will see that Remington and Federal have the highest copper content and therefore have the softest brass. (easy to stretch if loaded hot)
X-Ray Spectrometry of Cartridge Brass
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/x-ray-spectrometry-of-cartridge-brass/
Bottom line, if you don't shoot maximum loads, and if you do not "OVER" resize your cases they will last a long time. And at AccurateShooter.com some of the shooters are getting over 30 reloading from their Lapua cases.
4831 is a stud on CGN..seriously the guy knows his stuff and isn't a #### about things!!
I neck size (bushing die) match ammo. Not because it makes the ammo more accurate (I have seen best results with FL sized brass) but because the brass does not have to be lubed and cleaned. It is just a faster way to load ammo. Match ammo is usually loaded 600 rounds at a time.
I always FL size ammo to be used in hunting (in any action except the Lee Enfield), in any semi or lever action.
I usually neck size ammo to be used in bolt action rifles because it is faster and easier on the brass.
With the Lee Enfield I only size enough to size the neck and enough of the body to allow chambering. I almost never size the case all the way.
I always FL size ammo to be used in hunting (in any action except the Lee Enfield), in any semi or lever action.
I usually neck size ammo to be used in bolt action rifles because it is faster and easier on the brass.
With the Lee Enfield I only size enough to size the neck and enough of the body to allow chambering. I almost never size the case all the way.
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
I have a .257 Roberts in a 722 Remington that has a tight chamber. If you just neck size it, you WILL start to have problems. I shot a deer and the bolt wouldn't open. Got a bit too enthusiastic and broke off the silver soldered bolt handle. Have also had lesser problems with this as the extractors are not robust on these rifles. Some other rifles I own, not so much problem. In general, I would say if you feel ANY resistance when you chamber resized cartridges, you are cruisin for a bruisin. You don't have to full length resize right down to the shell holder, just enough to not have hard extraction. Once you determine what works for that rifle, leave your die set. If you have multiple rifles in same cartridge, you pretty much have to size to the tightest.
longbranch*
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Victoria,BC.
I generally F/L size all my hunting cartridges. Brass is cheap. A tight chambering round on the range is ok, but not in the field, speaking for myself that is.
I usually FL size, useing the redding competition shell holders to get just enough bump. It's also handy for useing the same dies on multiple rifles without resetting the die. Neck sizing is over rated. I can routinely get straighter ammo with a full length die than a neck die, and if neck sized ammo is more accurate I sure can't prove it. Case life? I lose most of my cases to loose primer pockets, not body failures.
