As far as I know, because I know two people who have been denied Form 6NIAs as a result of this, Chinese guns are not allowed.
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Bringing a 5.56-marked AR in the US for a training course - possible?
- Thread starter markt
- Start date
A Russian SKS made in 194?. It might get accepted but I'm not too optimistic. There is a list of firearms that are acceptable for import (not temporary import mind you) and the Russian rifles and pistols listed does not include the SKS. Anything Chinese is a no go on that list so I didn't bother listing any Norc stuff. From what I can tell...and it's a quagmire...that list for permanant import is what they go off for country of origin for temporary imports.
I will post here when I get my form6NIA application back. In fact I might do up a how to post and see if it can get stickied. I wish I had that going in to this process...
Nope because it's Chinese made. The problem with the Norc is that they royally pissed off the U.S. several years ago. Basically Norc was inapropriately (some would say illegally) importing arms into the U.S. From what I can tell some may have even been FA. That seems to have been the catalyst for China being a banned country for firearms imports.
I suppose that if I really want to take a course in the US, I'd better get a gun that's made in North America, eh?
I just don't want to go to the trouble of paying more for a US-made AR and then have it denied over something as trivial as having 5.56 stamped on it somewhere. Sounds like that's not going to be the issue though.
My other confusion lies with the justification that must be made to allow me to attend the course in the first place. I guess it depends on the provider as to how closely they're trying to comply with ITAR.
Cheers,
MarkT
I submitted my form6 with both AR's (RRA pistol and RRA rifle) as 5.56mm. I don't expect a problem but again I'll know for sure in a couple weeks.
All I can tell you is that if you have a valid hunting license for any state and an authorized form6 you are legal to be in possession of a firearm in the U.S. As for attending the actual course I don't know...
Interesting thread. I was not aware of the training issue at all. I sent my form6 in a few weeks ago with my invitation to a competition, but also an invite to a two day competition class with Phil strader. Now i'm worried it's going to be a no go for the class.
I'm going to guess it will fall under the "training" issue also?
I'm going to guess it will fall under the "training" issue also?
ATF is fair with the NIA issue .. just follow their rules and avoid Norinco Chinese made guns. Also make sure and get a US hunting licence. as low as $20. Usually a fast turnaround with a FAX number .. they can always ammend your existing permit if required.
If anyone has a link on the training courses being limited to US citizens only .. please elaborate? Thanks
If anyone has a link on the training courses being limited to US citizens only .. please elaborate? Thanks
North Eastern Arms
Manufacturer-Business Member
Shipping ITAR controlled components in false bottom crates is not a gray area.
So mildot, from what i am reading from your post^^^^ it almost sounds like you wouldn't be able to take training if it is considered "defensive" or has a military background. A "competition class" would not fall under this. Correct?
dangertree
Business Rep
- Location
- NL/ON/FL/PL
Well that can be a "subjective" question, in the case of the "Blackwater" course they made reference to for instance the Beretta M9, as this is a US service pistol and any knowledge on it or info would fall under ITAR.
So "training" that requires you to use cover and concealment may not be seen as purely educational.Can you see where the course material and the instructors are up for interpretation.
I can only speak from my own personal experience with Blackwater and Glock.
In the case of Blackwater they required a TTA (Technical Training Agreement) they have one in place with the CF, so CF members can train.No agreement, no training even for MIL/LE.
In the case of Glock, they require approval of the DSP-83 end user certificate.
Like most laws ITAR is written for the benefit of the US DOS and has lots of leeway and interpretation. Would a US CCW course be considered training? or attending the SIG Academy? I don't know.
I talked to LAV at SHOT last year about a course at Silverdale, and we couldn't come to the conclusion if a simple 1911 pistol course would constitute a infraction under ITAR? or would the addition of the DSP-83($250 fee)make it viable for students?
LAV's schedule is booked from Jan-Dec, not much of an incentive for him to come up for a 1-day or a 3-day.
Moreover its just too complicated to attend the kind of course in the US that would make the effort worthwhile. Most accomplished IPSC and IDPA shooters IMO would not get much from a basic one day pistol course.
For me the real advantage would the range facilities like at Blackwater and the training staff. I've done a couple of HK courses and that really made the difference.
I don't know how "short" or "long" your memory is but remember when the Magpul DVD series came out.This was an ITAR restricted item, its not until recently that they have made it up north for sale. If a DVD can constitute training through the mere act of watching it?, what does that tell you about any other type of "hands on training" ?, furthermore the scope and reach of the ITAR regulations?
I'm no SME buy any stretch of the imagination, I have just related some of my own personal experiences. I suppose if you can get the trainer to submit the DSP-83 (about 6 weeks) then you may very well be able to attend any course you choose? Let us know how it ends.
Cheers
I'm no SME buy any stretch of the imagination, I have just related some of my own personal experiences. I suppose if you can get the trainer to submit the DSP-83 (about 6 weeks) then you may very well be able to attend any course you choose? Let us know how it ends.
Cheers
Will do. Form was sent in around three weeks ago now so could see it back anytime now.
So basically you cant enter the US with a firearm unless youve spend 2 grand or more on it... i see , thats peachy 
what if you made a chinese firearm 922R compliant and had the minimum amount of Us made parts , has anyone considered this , considering their are norinco and poly technologies rifles in the united states already.
what if you made a chinese firearm 922R compliant and had the minimum amount of Us made parts , has anyone considered this , considering their are norinco and poly technologies rifles in the united states already.
So low and behold,i get to work this morning and my form 6 is back. Look at the second page to see approved! With the competition training class on and with the 2300rnds i need. I asked for 600rnds for matches and then the extra for course, with an invitation. I don't know what makes the difference for approval or not, regarding what the batf considers "training".
If you want to take a look at what is posted regarding this course go to alaska gunner website as i'm sure the batf did.
Anyways i'm really happy i get to go!!
So basically you cant enter the US with a firearm unless youve spend 2 grand or more on it... i see , thats peachy
what if you made a chinese firearm 922R compliant and had the minimum amount of Us made parts , has anyone considered this , considering their are norinco and poly technologies rifles in the united states already.
Nope...
Chinese is Chinese... No matter how much 922r foolery you attempt.
also... No lend-lease guns are permitted for temp import.
That said... There's no mystery to getting an approved F6NIA.
All the info is on the BATFE website... You can put as many guns on the app you want... They'll just scratch off the ones they don't want you bringing in.
My comrades and I have many guns each on multiple F6NIA's.. All makes except Norinco... Everything from snub nosed . 38's to AR's to Shotguns to evil "sniper" rifles... All approved year after year no questions.
Fill it out.. Fax it in and enjoy
Just playing "devils advocate" here and I don't want to "rain on your parade" however the DOS (Department of State) is the regulatory body for the administration of ITAR.The BATF simply regulates the NFA (National Firearms Act) and the temporary importation of firearms. I don't believe the scope of there mandate covers training.The course invitation was merely a condition to be inside the US as a non-resident with firearms and ammunition.
Good Luck on the course.
Ditto to Mildot -- BATFE paperwork has no standing for ITAR.
However its not you who gets in trouble (other than being potentially not allowed back in the US and your weapons seized) but the training entity down here can face major fines and prison terms.
Filling out a DSP-83 and getting approved is not a major issue -- yes its $250 (if its approved), but in the grand scheme of things, its better to be safe, than be sorry.
However its not you who gets in trouble (other than being potentially not allowed back in the US and your weapons seized) but the training entity down here can face major fines and prison terms.
Filling out a DSP-83 and getting approved is not a major issue -- yes its $250 (if its approved), but in the grand scheme of things, its better to be safe, than be sorry.
