Bringing back Ammo from the US

[Jeff000]

And just ignore the fact that you are committing a crime on the US side. If you get away with it, who cares?

US laws. I'm Canadian. You are breaking US laws on Canadian soil the way I see it.

FWIW I have never smuggled anything across the boarder, I pay for everything. When I have brought back vehicles (5 to date, on the look for the 6th and 7th) with 3-5k worth of other goods I have had the agent tell me not to worry about other goods and just the vehicle.

 

[MudChucker]

I heard this from a very good source.............if you buy ammo or any firearm related parts and go to border, when stopped on U.S. side they will ask you if you have any of the above items, if the reply is NO, they will ask it again, if same reply they will let you go on to Canadian side where you are stopped again and asked if you have anything to declare,if you say yes and it happens to be firearms items (ie: guns, ammo,parts so on) they will send you back to the U.S. side of border to deal with it...............afer that, well not sure....................

they certainly will not do this to an identified Canadian citizen...while Canada customs may send you back to get the appropriate paperwork, they are not going to feed you to the dogs at the inspection you just passed by on your way up to the booth.

 

[SandRoad]

US laws. I'm Canadian. You are breaking US laws on Canadian soil the way I see it.

FWIW I have never smuggled anything across the boarder, I pay for everything. When I have brought back vehicles (5 to date, on the look for the 6th and 7th) with 3-5k worth of other goods I have had the agent tell me not to worry about other goods and just the vehicle.

they certainly will not do this to an identified Canadian citizen...while Canada customs may send you back to get the appropriate paperwork, they are not going to feed you to the dogs at the inspection you just passed by on your way up to the booth.

Well you ARE breaking Canadian law. Canada is a signatory to ITAR so if you bring ammo across then you are breaking both Canadian and US law if you don't have an import permit.

Legally being able to bring in 5,000 rounds for personal use does NOT eliminate the need for an import permit under ITAR.

 

[tiriaq]

US laws. I'm Canadian. You are breaking US laws on Canadian soil the way I see it.

FWIW I have never smuggled anything across the boarder, I pay for everything. When I have brought back vehicles (5 to date, on the look for the 6th and 7th) with 3-5k worth of other goods I have had the agent tell me not to worry about other goods and just the vehicle.

No, you are a Canadian, a non-resident alien, breaking US arms control legislation on the US side of the line.
You may believe that you have never smuggled anything across the border, but then report that you smuggle controlled goods out of the United States. That is, you remove controlled goods from the US in violation of US federal law.
Maybe you will never get caught. Maybe you will.
If you do get caught, you will have a very unpleasant experience.
But, of course, you could just inform the good folks of Homeland Security that you never smuggle. That will straighten things out.
Good luck to you.

 

[Trotter]

The dogs are looking for drugs. Ammunition smuggling is not their concern.

If you do have undeclared ammunition, do NOT stop at duty free. And keep your damn receipts, if you are over then pay the little bit of tax people.
Saying "I dunno, 300 dollars worth of items, err maybe 350, I dunno" Is just asking them to pull you to the side and making you pay for whatever items they feel like making you pay for.

Option 1: save a few bucks

Option 2: 7 days jail, seizure of vehicle, fine for the value of the ammunition, banned on US soil for life, but only IF you get caught

 

[Brordo]

Ok...this is ridiculous....we all know you can't bring the ammo back legally. I do wonder about these guys saying you'll be turned back to get a permit. Unless I'm out to lunch you can't get an export permit (being a Cdn.)...only a US business can...so why would they send you back? So you can incriminate yourself to the US border guards? That makes no sense to me...but then again I'm guessing it probably goes back to some Cdn border guard having a bad day and not following protocol (from his side of things).

 

[MudChucker]

Well you ARE breaking Canadian law. Canada is a signatory to ITAR so if you bring ammo across then you are breaking both Canadian and US law if you don't have an import permit.

Legally being able to bring in 5,000 rounds for personal use does NOT eliminate the need for an import permit under ITAR.

yes, I realize that you are braking the law...but, my point, more to the point, was that Canada Customs, is not going to turn you around, and send you back to the Americans who just inspected you at the roadside inspection just prior to the boarder.

 

[AManWithAGun]

What if a US citizen brings ammo to the Canadian Customs check point, where I meet him and pick up the ammo ? He'll be exporting without a license, but I'd be bringing ammo into Canada legally ?

 

[tiriaq]

CBSA routinely asks "if you have ammo." You can:

1. Lie, not declare it, and hope you don't get caught. (illegal, and will fetch you hefty fines and possible imprisonment)

2. Tell them you have it. They will turn you around back to the U.S. to get your paperwork to import. (yes, they are tattling on their own citizens as per ITAR and State Department pressure) If your ammo is on the approved list, and after handing over $$$ to do the paperwork, (I think it's $250.00) your good to go. If it's not on the approved list, you have to keep the ammo in the U.S.

Bottomline, based on the prices here, your time, effort, and risk, even if you max out on ammo, it's not economical. When the dollar was 65¢ U.S., sure. Today at par, no.

This is the first report that I have heard of this, but I am not surprised.
Canadian turns up at border crossing with goods that can only be exported from the US with substantial paperwork. I.e, laddie has a load of contraband being smuggled out of the US. Not surprising at all that laddie would be given the opportunity to abandon the goods on the spot, or return to the US to arrange for legal export. Which ain't going to happen, because the US authorities will be waiting......

 

[tiriaq]

What if a US citizen brings ammo to the Canadian Customs check point, where I meet him and pick up the ammo ? He'll be exporting without a license, but I'd be bringing ammo into Canada legally ?

Your friend could be prosecuted.
And if the Cdn. policy is changing, as has been reported in this thread, you are going to lose the goods.

 

[Brordo]

Not surprising at all that laddie would be given the opportunity to abandon the goods on the spot, or return to the US to arrange for legal export. Which ain't going to happen, because the US authorities will be waiting......

Now that would make some sense but then again the Cdn side is looking at 5000 rounds without needing an import permit...isn't that what they're looking for? They don't care about the US side of the paperwork...just their side...which is none for that amount or less.

So...you show up with 1000 rounds at the Cdn border and you're a Cdn citizen (again...not legal and we're not saying to do this for those who still don't get it) the border guard is going to happily charge the taxes and send you on your merry way...we've seen this umpteen times...but this new "they'll send you back" smells more like something that would happen to a US citizen coming in with a bunch of ammo...not a Cdn citizen...

Moderator...is there a way to lock these crazy threads that continually pop up and seem to breed the illegal comments? I mean I haven't been a member for any great length of time and even I get crazed seeing them over and over and over again...

 

[ki11ercane]

Now that would make some sense but then again the Cdn side is looking at 5000 rounds without needing an import permit...isn't that what they're looking for? They don't care about the US side of the paperwork...just their side...which is none for that amount or less.

So...you show up with 1000 rounds at the Cdn border and you're a Cdn citizen (again...not legal and we're not saying to do this for those who still don't get it) the border guard is going to happily charge the taxes and send you on your merry way...we've seen this umpteen times...but this new "they'll send you back" smells more like something that would happen to a US citizen coming in with a bunch of ammo...not a Cdn citizen...

Moderator...is there a way to lock these crazy threads that continually pop up and seem to breed the illegal comments? I mean I haven't been a member for any great length of time and even I get crazed seeing them over and over and over again...

If you're concerned over the validity of the situation, call the CBSA. Ask them for the department that handles ITAR. Tell them EXACTLY what we're talking about here. When you get your answer, come back to this forum and post your findings. Make them put it in writing so you can take it to the border with you when you go.

John and I are dealers. We know the law. John has been doing this for 37 years and I have been doing it for about one. I travel from the border ALL THE TIME with imports for my three companies. I know the law. I have seen the rulings. I see the memos. I am in constant communication with the CBSA DAILY on importations. I talk to the agents. I am on the front line on this issue. You are not. If you want to prove us wrong, go buy some ammo. Go the the border, declare it. Tell them you want documentation on the legalities of importing ammo without a permit under ITAR. Again, report back your findings. The CBSA will turn you back to the U.S. They will make you make you get permits (that you cannot get). You will at the least lose your ammunition when you can't get the documentation when you return back to Canada empty handed.

Solution - buy Canadian. Stop proving to the dealers here in Canada a non-desire to support Canadian dealers. If people wonder why dealers won't lower prices or be more aggressive with their business to customers, this pretty much hammers the point home to them/us. Why support an industry and scene that constantly announces that it wants to buy the same product that's right here in Canada somewhere else?

I cannot wrap my head around how people want to do through so much hassle and debate over an issue that saves them a couple of pennies per round and can land them in so much trouble with the off chance of going to jail and losing the firearms they so much don't want their own government to confiscate.

Epic.

 

[SandRoad]

Now that would make some sense but then again the Cdn side is looking at 5000 rounds without needing an import permit...isn't that what they're looking for? They don't care about the US side of the paperwork...just their side...which is none for that amount or less.

Wrong (rather it is incomplete). That allows you to import without an import permit from NRCAN. You still need an import permit from DFAIT to satisfy ITAR.

Quantities that may be imported for personal use and not for sale without requiring an Explosives Importation Permit from Natural Resources Canada (NRCan) include:

* small-arms, sporting ammunition, up to a maximum of 5,000 rounds;
* primers, up to a quantity of 5,000;
* empty primed cartridge cases, up to a quantity of 5,000; and
* propellants, smokeless powder in containers not exceeding 4 kilograms and black powder in containers not exceeding 500 grams, up to a maximum total combined quantity of 8 kilograms, (17.66 pounds).

Consult with the Explosives Regulatory Division at NRCan to determine if the ammunition you wish to import is authorized and approved for importation and use in Canada. Note that tracer, armour-piercing and similar military cartridges are prohibited under Canadian law.

Within these limits, non-residents can import 200 rounds duty free for hunting purposes, or up to 1,500 rounds duty free for use at a recognized competition.

 

[Brordo]

Killer...you've gone off on a tangent. I'm behind you 100% about buying Cdn and doing things the legal way...in no way have I condoned the bringing back of ammo from the US...but you have to see that what you're saying is something new (and I'm only talking about the part about being turned back for a permit that you can't get)...rather than arguing about it let us see one of those memos you speak of (or point us to a URL that contains the info). I just got off the phone with CBSA and the guy I spoke with rattled off the same spiel about 5000 rounds that we all know we legally can't do (and no reference to DFAIT)...as they said on the XFiles..."I want to believe" (but just can't seem to find anything that you might be privy to as a dealer)

 

[SandRoad]

(and no reference to DFAIT)

As with many things, CBSA only knows their little part of the rulebook. The permit from DFAIT is what you get when you go through the full (legal) import process. If you are importing less than 5,000 rounds, then a second permit from NRCAN is not required.

https://excol-ceed.gc.ca/excol/Forms/IIC/IIC.aspx?recordId=-1&lang=en (this link doesn't work with Firefox)

And the summary sheet from Dave's Sports for filling out the above link for imports

http://davessports.com/Applying for an International Import Certificate (IIC).pdf

Just a note, the import process for ammo is not that much different than for firearms.

 

[mlehtovaara]

Why is this thread even still going? Question has been answered numerous times with facts and experience. Nuke the thread!

 

[Brordo]

I think we're coming at this from 2 different angles...correct me if I'm wrong but you're pointing out the true legal way to bring in the ammunition (which I concur with and am not questioning). What I'm getting at is the turning around for Cdn citizens with less than 5000 rounds for a permit that they can't get (and shouldn't need as far as CBSA is concerned)...yes, we know that it's illegal to try to bring the ammo out of the US that way and whomever does that does so at their own peril (remember I'm not saying to do that or condone it)...I'm just trying to figure out where this turning around business came from...I've never heard of it happening, can't find any resources to back it up and am just asking questions so that I can be more enlightened...

 

[SandRoad]

Why is this thread even still going? Question has been answered numerous times with facts and experience. Nuke the thread!

DON'T NUKE THIS TREAD. You obviously haven't fully read this thread. You have offered SFA in the way of documentation or explanations.

The answers about the DFAIT permits versus NRCAN permits and what CBSA says, have never been fully addressed in previous threads.

 

[SandRoad]

What if a US citizen brings ammo to the Canadian Customs check point, where I meet him and pick up the ammo ? He'll be exporting without a license, but I'd be bringing ammo into Canada legally ?

Your friend could be prosecuted.
And if the Cdn. policy is changing, as has been reported in this thread, you are going to lose the goods.

There is an exemption for an American RESIDENT for exporting a small amount of ammo for personal use.

If you are an American citizen, but not currently an American Resident, then it would be considered a permanent export and you would need a US Export Permit.

 

[tiriaq]

For the first time, in this thread, it is reported that a returning Canadian citizen, arriving at the border with controlled goods being illegally exported from the US could be turned back, and forced to deal with the US authorities.
I have no reason to doubt ki11ercane's report. There is no reason for Canadian authorities to facilitate smuggling out of the US. US and Cdn law enforcement agencies do work together, and ITAR is international. Cdn. authorities have expressed concern about the smuggling of arms across the border. The Cdn. Gov't has been pressuring the US Gov't to stop illegal exports.
It may be that this is now happening.
Until this situation is clarified, anyone planning of doing any crossborder shopping had better stop and think.