Brown Bess Repro

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alechs

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I've done a little BP shooting with a percussion rifle and really have the bug to get a flintlock Brown Bess repro. My budget is about $1000.00.

Can anyone direct me to online suppliers of Brown Bess repros in Canada. Companies and manufacturers who are good/bad to deal with?

Also looking for info/links on accessories (flints, tools, ball molds, accessories, bayonets, slings etc.)

Links to reenactors in Canada who might have a lot of good info also appreciated.

Thanks
 
Brown Bess repro

Loyalist Arms out of Halifax has it all, pretty well - several models of BB, most under $1000. I got a 1728 model BB musketoon from them two years ago, and it's great! I have used it for skeet shooting with shot loads, and I have used ball for targets. They are also great people to deal with, in my experience. Their pieces are ready, right out of the box.

I usually use Track of the Wolf stateside for some supplies, too. They've always been reliable and prompt.

Military Heritage also has repros, but the touch-holes are not drilled. For me, customer service there is a disappointment. I have been trying to get a pouch and belt set from them since last year, but have received nothing but excuses like, "End of the month, next month", that sort of thing. They might be better for muskets and such, but I don't know that.
 
daveT said:
Loyalist Arms out of Halifax has it all, pretty well - several models of BB, most under $1000. I got a 1728 model BB musketoon from them two years ago, and it's great! I have used it for skeet shooting with shot loads, and I have used ball for targets. They are also great people to deal with, in my experience. Their pieces are ready, right out of the box.

I usually use Track of the Wolf stateside for some supplies, too. They've always been reliable and prompt.

Military Heritage also has repros, but the touch-holes are not drilled. For me, customer service there is a disappointment. I have been trying to get a pouch and belt set from them since last year, but have received nothing but excuses like, "End of the month, next month", that sort of thing. They might be better for muskets and such, but I don't know that.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, I understand that BB repros are made in India, Japan and Itlay.

What are the comparative differences (quality/authenticity/shootability etc.)?

Thanks.
 
None are made in Japan anymore. The Italian ones are a bit nicer with real walnut, but re ridiculously overpriced for what they are. Pedersoli has doubled their prices in just the last 5 years.

the Indian pieces, in my experiance are a hair more authentic as to markings and lock construction and IMHO the locks are better than Pedersoli, but the rest of the fit and finish isn't quite as nice and the wood isn't walnut, but rahter some kind of fruit wood akin to rosewood.

I have an Indian made 3rd pattern bess myself. No complaints. It's a Loyalist Arms gun FWIW.
 
If you go to the April Purchases section in the CGN Milsurp forum, Claven2 discusses his Loyalist Brown Bess, and has already posted in this thread. I need to type faster.
As far as absolute authenticity is concerned, very few reproduction Besses can pass as originals, if the viewer knows what an original Bess is like. The only ones that might are custom made. These are smoothbore guns, so this does affect shooting. They can be loaded as a shotgun, and with a patched ball might show some degree of accuracy. Loaded as originally done, accuracy is limited. These muskets have large locks. This affects locktime. Wingshooting with a musket is a challenge, compared to shooting a sporting gun with a smaller, faster lock.
 
Real Men Own a Brown Bess :)
Those modern rifles like the great plains rifle are for wussies (like me)
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I think you have to be careful with the Indian made guns. I pulled the breach plug on one and the plug did not extend to the end of the threads. I own and used to shoot a Japanese bess; thought it was well made and worked well for me. My fickle affections however have shifted to the original that I reclaimed a short while ago.

cheers mooncoon
 
Thanks for the info, I've read all the previous posts and looked at the websites.

What would be the correct shooting accoutrements for a BB equipped infantryman of the 1812 period? How did they carry ball, powder etc?

Are there any reenactor websites in Canada that would provide this info.
 
If you happen to be in ON, or were to visit Toronto during the summer, you could go to Old Fort York, and watch the musket drills. There are 1812 period re-enactment groups in ON, although I do not know how to contact any.
 
Although tiriaq correctly points out that accuracy is limited if loaded as originally done, that is due largely to excessively loose ball and lack of sights. Loading and shooting a Bess (or other smoothbore, such as a trade gun) more like you would a rifle can produce some surprising results.

I have one of the Japanese repros, and shot with patched .735" round ball (which is a lot closer to bore diameter than military-issue ball), using a crude but easily rigged rear sight, here is the sort of group it is capable of producing (ten rounds, 50 yards, rested) ....

(Click on thumbnails to enlarge ...)




As for the sight I rigged up, you couldn't get much cruder ... and it is simply positioned and held in place by the tang screw ... but it sure helps with consistent hold. These pictures should give you a better idea of how it was made and mounted than any written description I could produce ...

 
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mooncoon said:
I think you have to be careful with the Indian made guns. I pulled the breach plug on one and the plug did not extend to the end of the threads. I own and used to shoot a Japanese bess; thought it was well made and worked well for me. My fickle affections however have shifted to the original that I reclaimed a short while ago.

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

The older Indian made besses were a far cry from those available now in my experience. Also, if this concerns you, buy a Loyalist bess. They pull the plugs and drill the holes in their shop. Actually, they import their guns as indian made parts and assemble them in Nova Scotia. I've never heard of a Loyalist Arms bess with breech plugs issues, at least not in many years.

Military Heritage/Discriminating Gerneral besses are another story, however. No drilled touch hole and the guns come assembled in India. No QA/QC checks are performed by the importer beyond obvious cracks in the stock wood, etc.

In the case of ANY black powder firearm that isn't modern proof marked, your first shot should be a "proof" load. Loyalist recommends a 75gr 2fg standard charge pushing a patched .735" round ball. They recommend you proof with 150gr 2fg pushing the same patched ball. Fire remotely. If it holds up to that, it's fine. according to the guys at Loyalist, they've never had a gun returned to them that failed proof except one guy who allegedly fired a quadruple charge over 4 patched bullets. Aparently he was a new BP shooter and thought the rounds were going off and missing the target. Then the main charge finally fired - yikes! They say no-one was hurt though.

I have no worries about the safety of Indian besses that come pre-drilled for firing. I do, however, wish they were stocked in walnut.
 
Regarding 1812. The standard issue arm at that time was the Third Pattern Short Land Musket, also referred to as the East India Company Pattern Musket, or the India Pattern for short.

Sadly, only custom made besses, the Indian made guns, and some kits from the Rifle Shoppe are all that is available. Pedersoli only makes a fair copy of the 2nd pattern long land and some kind of bastardized musketoon fantasy piece that near as I can tell never existed in the British Army. The Italian guns are well made, true, but the Indian produced pieces are more correctly configured muskets.

The nicest India pattern I've seen recently was one of the Loyalist Arms IP besses that was bought as a parts it and then custom rebuilt onto a Rifle Shoppe walnut Bess stock. It was beautiful, but the gunsmithing alone likely cost more than a Pedersoli Bess.

Some day if mine ever gets a cracked stock or if I get the ambition, I might just try dropping mine into a Rifle Shoppe stock and gettign the markings touched up to be more historically accurate (ie, defarbing).
 
Re-enactor groups

Alechs,

Google "IMUC" - that's the Independent Militia of Upper Canada - and you will find lots of information and links for 1812 re-enacting, as well as event dates. And they aren't the only ones! In the run-up to 2012, the 200th anniversary, there is a lot of activity on both sides of the border.

Nancy Island in Wasaga in July is a fairly big event for Canada. If you are anywhere near it would be worth it, and you will find many guys who would be only too glad to explain what's authentic, and what's not.
 
FWIW, when I was involved in manufacturing Trade Guns, I proofed the barrels with 150 gr. 2F and two ounces of shot. These were 24 ga. I felt that if one was being used as a shotgun, 75 gr. with 1 oz. would be a heavy load, so a double charge of shot and powder should be reasonable for a proof. Never had a problem. I know one of our guns was fired a number of times without mishap using dismantled components from 20 ga. shotshells - smokeless powder. Bottom of the flashpan had a little erosion groove cut in it, as if a tiny cutting torch had been applied. Barrels were 1137 steel.
Chap who made the India Pattern Besses used at Old Fort York tried to burst a barrel with 700 gr. of powder, and IIRC 3 balls. Barrel broke loose from the cradle, travelled some distance and wound up leaning against a tree. No detectable damage.
The most dangerous situation with a ml gun is failure to seat the projectile against the powder. If there is a substantial gap, even a modern barrel can be burst.
 
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