Browning A5 - Genius!

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triplepete

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I came across a Daiwa A500 - copy of the Browning, that I got for decent price from fellow CGNer. Knew nothing about A5s but I took the A500 to shoot a few rounds today. Stage one on skeet, loaded 2 rounds that cycled and shot fine. Loaded 2 more for doubles - first round fired but no cycle and spent shell left in chamber. This happend a few more times before I switched guns.

Took it home and studied it, wondered if this old copy was just meant for 3" or magnums - took it apart and I was looking for the gas port.... no gas port! WTF? How does this thing work???

Youtube - video:

Wow, I had no idea the entire barrel recoils to push bolt back! More youtube help me find that the gun is adjustable for various loads - turns out the spring and bushing set up was for heavy loads... so I now have it set up for light target loads but the tension still feels the same. Video I seen demonstrated where to and how to place bushings - can it be that fractions of an inch for preload can make that much a difference ? - still feels pretty darn heavy for a target shell to cycle that action.

Gonna take it back to range as soon as I get a chance to try it out. Im so excited I learned something new today about the genius of JMB!
 
Thanks for sharing that gem of a find on You Tube.
Simply amazing the number of movements in an auto loader.
Any auto loader for that matter.
Got pics of your Daiwa A5 copy?
Hope you get it worked out and use some G96 for lube too.
Rob
 
You might also consider removing the return spring and follower from inside the rear stock and giving the inside of the tube a good cleaning as well as the spring and follower . reassemble with a small bit of light oil .
 
When set up for light loads the spring tension will be the same as for the heavy loads. It is the friction ring that does the brunt of the job of decelerating the assembly by being squeezed around the mag tube as the barrel is forced rearward under recoil when setup for heavy loads. Browning designed the Auto-5 long recoil system with SAE 30 motor oil as lube...it's still what works best on the friction ring to this day.
 
Having seen a few videos of the new A5s firing, it doesn't seem like they are of this design anymore. Too bad, this is such a neat system!
 
VLT79 said:
When set up for light loads the spring tension will be the same as for the heavy loads. It is the friction ring that does the brunt of the job of decelerating the assembly by being squeezed around the mag tube as the barrel is forced rearward under recoil when setup for heavy loads. Browning designed the Auto-5 long recoil system with SAE 30 motor oil as lube...it's still what works best on the friction ring to this day.
Click to expand...

Oh, interesting physics! Amazing how moving a few rings around can adjust for loads. Everything is gas ports these days and even then I underestimate the amount of force that travels thru those tiny gas ports. There is a 12ga opening at end of barrel yet enuff pressure is still forced back to bolt. It takes about half my body weight to force the A5 barrel and bolt back - seems crazy a whole barrel and action can be pushed back by a shell or cartridge.
 
VLT79 said:
When set up for light loads the spring tension will be the same as for the heavy loads. It is the friction ring that does the brunt of the job of decelerating the assembly by being squeezed around the mag tube as the barrel is forced rearward under recoil when setup for heavy loads. Browning designed the Auto-5 long recoil system with SAE 30 motor oil as lube...it's still what works best on the friction ring to this day.
Click to expand...

Holy crap batman you must be 45 years old twice on this earth to remember sae30 being used which is was and still is by some of the old die hards. :)
Genius is an understatement for this man One seems to forget he designed that action in 1898 and patented it 1900
and it was still being used for 100 years, by different manufacturers over those years like remington , savage etc etc
Can you just imagine what he would be designing today or where we would be if he never lived
Unreal the brains this man had and so so far ahead of his time it is scary
 
3macs1 said:
Holy crap batman you must be 45 years old twice on this earth to remember sae30 being used which is was and still is by some of the old die hards. :)
Genius is an understatement for this man One seems to forget he designed that action in 1898 and patented it 1900
and it was still being used for 100 years, by different manufacturers over those years like remington , savage etc etc
Can you just imagine what he would be designing today or where we would be if he never lived
Unreal the brains this man had and so so far ahead of his time it is scary
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Bahahaha! What can I say...I'm an old man trapped in a 34yr old's body! I know many use more modern lubes on the friction ring but most fail to realize that if it has more "slip" and you are shooting heavy loads, the barrel/bolt velocity increases and it pounds the $h!+ out of the old guns. Another interesting fact about the Auto-5 is that despite it's age, and many more moving parts, it actually has a faster cyclic rate than that of the highly praised Benelli inertia driven system (current "Super 90" rotating bolt).
 
I have a Winchester SX3 - love that gun, fast and smooth. The A5 action has a lot more felt recoil and even an odd twist feel in the recoil - maybe because it wasn't set up right for my target loads. Definitely has more character and old school feel. The new A5s look similar but they are gas operated and probably same action as my SX3.

Some pics of the Daiwa - Made by Nikko Singer in Japan. Very well made copy.

Daiwa+A500+-+7


Daiwa+A500+-+6


Daiwa+A500+-+4


Came with 3 screw chokes!
Daiwa+A500+-+3
 
The A5 is not gas operated. It actually employs a short recoil inertia opertating system that is very similar to Benelli's Super 90 system. Your Daiwa Auto-5 clone is a nice gun indeed and should give you many years of great service! Did you get any extra chokes with it?
 
VLT79 said:
The A5 is not gas operated. It actually employs a short recoil inertia opertating system that is very similar to Benelli's Super 90 system. Your Daiwa Auto-5 clone is a nice gun indeed and should give you many years of great service! Did you get any extra chokes with it?
Click to expand...

It employs a Long-recoil operating system, where the entire barrel and bolt assembly recoil backwards. The barrel deposits the bolt at the back of travel, and then returns to the forward position, ejecting the spent casing and tripping a lever to release the bolt and load the next shell.

The new "A5" inertia-clone works exactly as you described, but the true and original guns are nothing like it.
 
Blastattack said:
It employs a Long-recoil operating system, where the entire barrel and bolt assembly recoil backwards. The barrel deposits the bolt at the back of travel, and then returns to the forward position, ejecting the spent casing and tripping a lever to release the bolt and load the next shell.

The new "A5" inertia-clone works exactly as you described, but the true and original guns are nothing like it.
Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about the Auto-5 in that last comment. The Auto-5 was sold and labelled as such by Browning...people abbreviated the model name and now there's confusion between it and the A5...two completely different guns.
 
VLT79 said:
The A5 is not gas operated. It actually employs a short recoil inertia opertating system that is very similar to Benelli's Super 90 system. Your Daiwa Auto-5 clone is a nice gun indeed and should give you many years of great service! Did you get any extra chokes with it?
Click to expand...

Thanks, Yes. Small med and large sizes. Not exactly what chokes are according to modern ratings. With no chokes should be cylinder bore.

Just finished at range. I put lots of 10w30 oil on before I left. Played with friction ring and got her to cycle nicely with kent 7/8 oz shot. Still has quite a kick for semi auto. Stock hard shoulder plate. Old school rules!
 
If you find it is kicking too hard, you may have too much oil on the magazine tube and the action is slamming into the receiver. Use ONLY enough lube for it to function 100%. Wipe most of it off and see how it performs. 7/8 oz. is a very light load, I'm surprised it cycles it.
 
Grouse Man said:
If you find it is kicking too hard, you may have too much oil on the magazine tube and the action is slamming into the receiver. Use ONLY enough lube for it to function 100%. Wipe most of it off and see how it performs. 7/8 oz. is a very light load, I'm surprised it cycles it.
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Oops. yeah, It's soaked in 10w30. I had a couple of Winchester AA 1-1/8 loads in there and nearly wrecked the trigger I think. The trigger got jammed and didnt reset for next chambered round - had to wiggle the trigger to reset. Gunsmiths must have been busy with these A5s when guys used the high brass loads in light setting.




FLHTCUI said:
triplepete, Thank you for taking the extra time to share your experience with your gun.
Nice work bench too.
Rob
Click to expand...

My pleasure. I lucked out on getting that bench. 8'x3'x2" maple top with heavy duty steel legs. Top is height adjustable by crank! I got 2 of them for free (one I gave to buddy who helped me move it into my basement. My wife's old production lab went under and I was able to grab 2 of these.
 
VLT79 said:
When set up for light loads the spring tension will be the same as for the heavy loads. It is the friction ring that does the brunt of the job of decelerating the assembly by being squeezed around the mag tube as the barrel is forced rearward under recoil when setup for heavy loads. Browning designed the Auto-5 long recoil system with SAE 30 motor oil as lube...it's still what works best on the friction ring to this day.
Click to expand...

Actually, the A-5 friction ring set-up is designed to run almost free of lube. If one feels the need to put a wipe of oil on the magazine tube, make sure to use nothing thicker than kerosene to keep the bugger clean and provide the proper amount of stiction for the friction sleeve. You also need to place the friction set ring in the proper position to allow for more or less grab on the friction sleeve for either light or heavy loads.

The newer inertia type models are quite different in design and operation.:)
 
I had an browning auto 5 made in 1936 in europe. I never did anything too it except wipe it down with a bit of gun oil. It worked very well and would cycle anything i could put through it. Stupid me I sold it years ago. I should of kept it.
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
Actually, the A-5 friction ring set-up is designed to run almost free of lube. If one feels the need to put a wipe of oil on the magazine tube, make sure to use nothing thicker than kerosene to keep the bugger clean and provide the proper amount of stiction for the friction sleeve. You also need to place the friction set ring in the proper position to allow for more or less grab on the friction sleeve for either light or heavy loads...
Click to expand...

The amount of lube used will depend on the load you are using and the only time you need or want to have the mag tube almost free of lube is when using 2 3/4" Magnum loads. Straight 30W motor oil is what the original Auto-5 was designed to work with way back then and still works best to this day, IMHO.

For the OP, or any other Auto-5 owner, here is a link to a PDF copy of a Field Service Manual. Page 17 shows the proper heavy/light load ring placements and talks about lube requirements on the friction ring/mag tube.

h ttp://www.midwestgunworks.com/field_service_manual/browning_auto_5_field_service_manual.pdf
 
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