Went into a local store recently and there it was, a BSA Martini in beautiful condition. Now, I've wanted one of these for a very long time, but they aren't very common, so I bought it. I know nothing about these except that they're beautifully made and have a reputation for accuracy. From what I can figure out this looks like a Mark 12, and has a Mark 8 sight. Can anyone school me on these?
BSA Martini
- Thread starter enefgee
- Start date
There's a fair bit of information available. For starters, see in general h ttps://www.rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Martini_International_Mks.I_and_II.html
There's a link at the bottom of this source to a pdf on the BSA International ISU h ttps://www.rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Martini_International_Mks_IV_and_V.html
There's a link at the bottom of this source to a pdf on the BSA International ISU h ttps://www.rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Martini_International_Mks_IV_and_V.html
Martini rifles are a world of their own. Extremely strong for the period and surprisingly stable and accurate, even with a two piece stock, with a fore end that fits loosely into the receiver and hangs off the barrel, close to the muzzle.
That No 12 was BSA's special target model, based on the No 10 military training rifle action.
I've had a couple and they shoot better than most shooters can hold.
That rifle, if original should be equipped with a flip up dioptic sight, mounted on the rear of the receiver on the stock socket. It should also have a tangent sight about a foot in front of the receiver, mounted on a 29 inch bbl.
There was a time, close to 40 years ago, when International had a bunch of them for sale. They came out of the UK, where they were used by school clubs and other shooting clubs. Most were in VG to EXC condition. Some were badly beat up, with worn/pitted bores. They thrive on standard velocity ammunition.
The next upgrade is the 12/15.
BSA would make those rifles up with any bell or whistle that a buyer could afford, in their custom shop.
Once you've shot a Martini, you're hooked.
People with long necks don't appreciate the ergonomics of these rifles. They were made for a person around 5ft 6in, with a 12 3/4 in average trigger pull length.
I have several Martinis. From 22rf to 257 Maxi, 357 Maxi, 303 Brit, 7X65R, 30-40Krag, 577/450. Fantastic rifles. I also have a custom rifle with AAA Walnut and special bbl. It's a Rook Rifle, in an obscure cartridge. I need to take it out of the safe for a few weeks and make up some cartridges for it.
Martinis are fun to shoot, easy to maintain and easy to carry. I like them a lot.
One thing to be careful with on that No12 rifle is the barrel length. Many folks cut them back, to use them for hunting. They also took off the diopter rear sight mechanism and promptly lost it.
If it's been cut down, there are a couple of reasons this may have happened. For ease of carry or that old bugaboo condition created by improper use of a "pull through" bore cleaner.
Rather than counterbore, the clubs mostly just cut them back to where the rifling was good and cut new crowns. I've seen some that were pretty sloppy, but if they were square, the rifles still shot well.
That No 12 was BSA's special target model, based on the No 10 military training rifle action.
I've had a couple and they shoot better than most shooters can hold.
That rifle, if original should be equipped with a flip up dioptic sight, mounted on the rear of the receiver on the stock socket. It should also have a tangent sight about a foot in front of the receiver, mounted on a 29 inch bbl.
There was a time, close to 40 years ago, when International had a bunch of them for sale. They came out of the UK, where they were used by school clubs and other shooting clubs. Most were in VG to EXC condition. Some were badly beat up, with worn/pitted bores. They thrive on standard velocity ammunition.
The next upgrade is the 12/15.
BSA would make those rifles up with any bell or whistle that a buyer could afford, in their custom shop.
Once you've shot a Martini, you're hooked.
People with long necks don't appreciate the ergonomics of these rifles. They were made for a person around 5ft 6in, with a 12 3/4 in average trigger pull length.
I have several Martinis. From 22rf to 257 Maxi, 357 Maxi, 303 Brit, 7X65R, 30-40Krag, 577/450. Fantastic rifles. I also have a custom rifle with AAA Walnut and special bbl. It's a Rook Rifle, in an obscure cartridge. I need to take it out of the safe for a few weeks and make up some cartridges for it.
Martinis are fun to shoot, easy to maintain and easy to carry. I like them a lot.
One thing to be careful with on that No12 rifle is the barrel length. Many folks cut them back, to use them for hunting. They also took off the diopter rear sight mechanism and promptly lost it.
If it's been cut down, there are a couple of reasons this may have happened. For ease of carry or that old bugaboo condition created by improper use of a "pull through" bore cleaner.
Rather than counterbore, the clubs mostly just cut them back to where the rifling was good and cut new crowns. I've seen some that were pretty sloppy, but if they were square, the rifles still shot well.
Ya...what he said...
One of, if not the best 'Peep sight' shooter I have.
Good Site, check out the Alphabetical Site Index
BSA Martini International
One of, if not the best 'Peep sight' shooter I have.
Good Site, check out the Alphabetical Site Index
BSA Martini International
After looking for several years, I also found a BSA Martini in 220 long (same as 22lr I understand) about six months ago. It looks virtually identical to HuskyDude's rifle and is also one of my best shooters with aperture sights (keeps up with a Brno Model 3 just fine, perhaps not as accurate as my 1960s vintage single-shot Anschutz 54).
From what I've read, the model 12 came with a receiver measuring 1-3/16" in width (which is the width I have) while the model 8 receiver was considered a thin wall at 1.000" in width. Where I was stumped for quite a while was with regard to the barrel length. At first I thought mine had been butchered because my barrel is 25" long, 1.000" in diameter at the breach and 0.750" at the muzzle. It has a #8 rear sight and the original #19 front globe sight with flip-up post or circle - the sight radius is 27.75".
However, I later found out from a post on rimfire central that there were two Canadian Privy Council orders for BSA Martini's for Cadets in 1925 (Order #440 for 1000 rifles, no model number specified) and 1927 (Order #2394 for 500 rifles, although these were specified as BSA #6).
The 1925 Privy Council order is believed to have been for Model 13 BSA Martinis which had the heavier receiver (similar to the model 12) but the shorter barrel (same length as the model 8); although there is no actual proof of this. Canadian BSA Martinis show C with an arrow stamped on the butt stock. BSA Martinis also have proof marks (as in the diagram below) with a capital letter ranging from A through V (only visible when the fore end furniture is removed).
[/IMG]
The proofing marks correspond to the following chart:
1921/22 - A; 1922/23 - B; 1923/24 - C; 1924/25 - D; 1925/26 - E; 1926/27 - F; 1927/28 - G; 1928/29 - H; 1929/30 - J; 1930/31 - K; 1931/32 - L; 1932/33 - M; 1933/34 - N; 1934/35 - O; 1935/36 - P; 1936/37 - R; 1937/38 - S; 1938/39 - T; 1939/40 - U; 1940/41 - V.
Mine shows a "B", therefore proofed in 1922/23. I don't know if it was part of the 1925 order or not since the Privi Council order wasn't actually approved until April of 1925, but who knows what conversations were going on in the background prior to the approval of the order.
Take this for what it's worth. It is free internet research; there may be errors.
What I do know for sure is that at 50m I can consistently shoot 0.500 to 0.700 centre-to-centre five-shot groups off bags with Standard Velocity ammo (didn't quite make the 1/2" @ 50 yards challenge, but pretty close - I'll try again this year when the weather gets nice; I'll try different upper-mid-range quality SV ammo made by Eley and Lapua this time). The 6-lb trigger is not my friend and sure highlights less than perfect trigger pull. On my rear aperture I found moving the sight 30 clicks resulted in 18.6 MOA of movement with CCI SV (this was done measuring average impacts of multiple 5-shot groups at 50m (3 groups at the 50m zero, then three groups with the aperture raised 30-clicks) as well as at 100m (same procedure). 1 click moves the impact just a hair (I think that's the technical term) over 0.6MOA. With a 50m zero, I need 14 clicks-up to hit a bull at 100m (using CCI SV).
Any additional insights to this piece of history are greatly appreciated.
Joe.
From what I've read, the model 12 came with a receiver measuring 1-3/16" in width (which is the width I have) while the model 8 receiver was considered a thin wall at 1.000" in width. Where I was stumped for quite a while was with regard to the barrel length. At first I thought mine had been butchered because my barrel is 25" long, 1.000" in diameter at the breach and 0.750" at the muzzle. It has a #8 rear sight and the original #19 front globe sight with flip-up post or circle - the sight radius is 27.75".
However, I later found out from a post on rimfire central that there were two Canadian Privy Council orders for BSA Martini's for Cadets in 1925 (Order #440 for 1000 rifles, no model number specified) and 1927 (Order #2394 for 500 rifles, although these were specified as BSA #6).
The 1925 Privy Council order is believed to have been for Model 13 BSA Martinis which had the heavier receiver (similar to the model 12) but the shorter barrel (same length as the model 8); although there is no actual proof of this. Canadian BSA Martinis show C with an arrow stamped on the butt stock. BSA Martinis also have proof marks (as in the diagram below) with a capital letter ranging from A through V (only visible when the fore end furniture is removed).
The proofing marks correspond to the following chart:
1921/22 - A; 1922/23 - B; 1923/24 - C; 1924/25 - D; 1925/26 - E; 1926/27 - F; 1927/28 - G; 1928/29 - H; 1929/30 - J; 1930/31 - K; 1931/32 - L; 1932/33 - M; 1933/34 - N; 1934/35 - O; 1935/36 - P; 1936/37 - R; 1937/38 - S; 1938/39 - T; 1939/40 - U; 1940/41 - V.
Mine shows a "B", therefore proofed in 1922/23. I don't know if it was part of the 1925 order or not since the Privi Council order wasn't actually approved until April of 1925, but who knows what conversations were going on in the background prior to the approval of the order.
Take this for what it's worth. It is free internet research; there may be errors.
What I do know for sure is that at 50m I can consistently shoot 0.500 to 0.700 centre-to-centre five-shot groups off bags with Standard Velocity ammo (didn't quite make the 1/2" @ 50 yards challenge, but pretty close - I'll try again this year when the weather gets nice; I'll try different upper-mid-range quality SV ammo made by Eley and Lapua this time). The 6-lb trigger is not my friend and sure highlights less than perfect trigger pull. On my rear aperture I found moving the sight 30 clicks resulted in 18.6 MOA of movement with CCI SV (this was done measuring average impacts of multiple 5-shot groups at 50m (3 groups at the 50m zero, then three groups with the aperture raised 30-clicks) as well as at 100m (same procedure). 1 click moves the impact just a hair (I think that's the technical term) over 0.6MOA. With a 50m zero, I need 14 clicks-up to hit a bull at 100m (using CCI SV).
Any additional insights to this piece of history are greatly appreciated.
Joe.
Boyd's used to make Martini stocks for just about every receiver variation. They still ship to Canada
OK, it appears to be a Model No. 8 - and it is a takedown. Rear sight as noted is a No 8, front is an FS22. Serial is in the mid 35,000 range.
Looking forward to taking it out to play.
Any C Broad Arrow markings? A letter "C" around an upwards pointing arrow, the Military Property mark as used for some long time.
How wide is the action? an inch, if it's a Model 8. If it's the 1 1/4 inch thick action, it may be one of the ones that the Cadet Corps had on inventory for years and years, which does not fit in the Models Listing well, but looks a lot like a shortened down Model 12.
I have one here that looks very much like that one, except this one has been drilled and tapped for (I think) a set of Redfield sights, currently blanked off with screws. Mine's Serial is mid 38000, C broad arrow stamped on the RH side front top corner of the action, as well as on the barrel just forward of the first mark. There is some signs that the forend was so stamped, and it has a brass disk inset in the RH of the stock. This one has a cocking indicator, as well as is on a 1 1/4 wide action.
I'll check it out tomorrow to see if it has the proof date letter under the forend.
I did note a very small (1/16 inch or so high) number 8 on the LH, side of the barrel, just in front of the takedown screw, and just barely above the hand guard, dunno if it has any significance, or none at all, but it appears factory applied.
Mine has the BSA No8 rear, and their small No 19 dual element sight as seen on the Model 12 page.
I am pondering whether these were a later version of the Model 8, using the same actions rather than separating them by thick and thin versions, by the time these were made. The Rifleman.org site is pretty convinced that the Model 8's ALL were made on thin actions, but ... Things that make ya go Hmmmmm.......
Ahhh... On the page for the Model 4 rifle, there is a statement to the effect that they progressed to the wider actions as used on the Model 12, through the line.
Which directly contradicts their saying that ALL the Model 8's were on slenderized up actions...
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When I saw JDAC's post I checked for C broad arrows, there are none. The rifle would fit into the description very well though. I think that BSA, like many companies at the time, produced what was requested. There's a note (with prices) describing a couple of options available for the Model No 12 - including a credit back for not needing the standard rear sight, if you were fitting a Model 8 rear sight - on the UK NRA site. There's no reason to think that they wouldn't put Model No 8 barrels on Model No 12 actions if someone was willing to pay for it. The action on this rifle is the thicker one. I'll have to track down some good ammunition for this one.
NavyShooter
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I just got one in the Switzer's Auction this past weekend. I didn't really 'need' it, but ended up dropping 5 bills on it. I had a friend who shot with one years ago and it was remarkably accurate. I'm looking forward to trying this one out.
Pics to follow when I get it in a couple of weeks or so.
NS
Pics to follow when I get it in a couple of weeks or so.
NS
If someone is looking for some cool Martini stocks check out Treebone Carving. George does some nice ones ,but he cant do left hand. I asked. He does lever action as well as many single shot stocks . His web site says he is still shipping to Canada.
Say about $900 too much....
I paid considerably less than that for an action here on CGN a couple years back.
Pretty sure there was a BSA small Martini rifle on the EE just in the last month or so for $450.
And I wouldn't sell mine for that either, but, the price it's worth, is what someone will pay, not what someone will sell (or not) for.
$500 may well be low, but $1400 does seem a bit high to me too.
Dug mine out in daylight, and the number "8" that I found at the LH rear of the barrel could also be a letter "S".
Appears to be a letter "E" with the crossed swords stamp. So potentially from the first order as that places the manufacture 1925-1926, by the info above.
