Building a BPCR Rifle

[One Lung Wonder]

Years ago I ran into an old fart that had the most beautiful rolling block you ever did see. The story was that the action was from a very old milsurp (I have never seen one but he said they were quite plentiful). In any event he bought one, threw the barrel and stock and other bits n' pieces in the garbage...and then rebuilt a fine BPCR gun around the action. It had a half round, half octagonal barrel and looked like it could dump a buffalo at a half a mile without even trying! I wanted to buy it from him but he just laughed and told me to forget it...and I can't blame him for that one bit!

I never forgot that rifle and would like to build one for myself. I am not too concerned about the BPCR authenticity game that only allows certain historically accurate makes and models...but I would like to have a deadly accurate buff gun that runs on cast lead and the Holy Black!

Could you double check my thinking and chime in with any thoughts or comments? I am thinking that I wouldn't mind re-barrelling a Ruger No.1 with a proper octagonal black powder barrel...but who would do the wood work and smithing on a project like this? Smiths that can crack off a high precision smokeless gun are a dime a dozen...who are the best in the field for black powder guns? And what about Martini Henry actions? I have seen tons of rebuilds using the action but I can't seem to find any donor guns at all for such a build. Are there any other actions available? Besides the rolling blocks?

I know I could just order a fine repro from Pedersoli or Uberti (and may yet be forced to do so)...but I want to explore my options first. Your two cents is, as always, sincerely appreciated.

 

[Senator]

It will a lot faster to get a repro and start to enjoy shooting. It takes more money and a lot more time to build. You can always sell the repro after you build something.
Just my 2 cents for what it is worth. It is free advice so you get what you pay for. My Martini project is already at 2 years.

 

[mooncoon]

I think my choice would be a Sharps 1874 action with a rolling block coming a close second. I also would suggest going to a 1/2 octagon barrel rather than octagon all the way. It gets rid of some weight. While I think of it, the round section should also be tapered. Also if you are using an original action, you would be wise to bush the firing pin. I think that anyone who can build a good smokeless rifle can also build a good black powder cartridge rifle. The trade off is that unless you can do the work yourself, it is considerably cheaper to buy a production replica gun

cheers mooncoon

 

[Blastattack]

Ron Smith would be my first choice for a smith. Best barrels money can buy and he knows his way around single shots.

 

[hickstick_10]

If it wasn't for that stupid "no hammer no play" rule for NRA BPCR, we'd probably see alot more martinis done up to look like peabody rifles. Best extracter, some camming on closing, fastest lock time and plenty strong.

Best martini for the build would be an old 303 enfield with a shot out/rusted out bore, as they have a hardened steel insert on the breech face to bush the firing pin.

 

[Easyrider]

There is a guy in Anola, MB that does conversions on Ruger #1's, using a Green Mountain barrel, making an inline muzzle loader. A BPCR would be quite a bit more straight forward...

 

[mooncoon]

I think the shortcoming of martinis is that the military ones cannot be cleaned from the breach (using a rod) and also they are a nuisance to strip, clean and put back together. With black powder there is a moderate amount of crud that ends up in the action and the action needs to be stripped and cleaned from time to time. With a Sharps rifle the lock mechanism is completely separate from the breach block and the breach block and lever are easy to remove and to reassemble. Rolling blocks are relatively easy to strip and assemble but you need to remove the butt and loosen the mainspring in order to remove the hammer. The Peabody has the advantage that the lock is isolated from the breach assembly and while I suspect most are rimfire, they would not be too hard to convert to centerfire using a sort of S shaped firing pin. (I have one that was originally made in centerfire). The catch to most of the above is that the actions are not overly common and are relatively expensive. Also by the time you have someone else rebarrel your action and restock it plus add good sights, you are looking at significantly more than an italian replica. In this area both rolling block and martini actions are not uncommon and are not particularly expensive ($200 - $300 for an action only) but again only worth buying if you do the work yourself

cheers mooncoon

 

[tiriaq]

I have a BPCR target rifle about ready for test firing, and final finishing.
Started as a Ruger No.1 in .220 Swift. It is now a .45-70 with Ron Smith barrel.

 

[rwnblack]

I am a sucker for punishment snd love building these rifles and the feeling of shooting something i have worked on. Here is a picture of my first rilling block build. It was a swedish military rolling block in 12.4 x 44 r. People are right in advising you to buy a repro as it will be cheaper and faster but I still like building my own. I think it is best if you can put in a significant amount of your own elbow grease however. The sharps in the picture is a Shiloh 54 cal percussion and I have been very tempted to convert it to 45-70 but just haven't had the heart to do it yet. If you do build a rolling block trade ex has lots of rolling blocks that can be used to build a rifle.

Rex

 

[gunlaker]

The Rugers can be made into a pretty nice rifle. However if you want to enter a silhouette match you might want to pick a different action as the Ruger isn't allowed.

Have you had a look at the Browning/Winchester BPCR rifles? Those are a great rifle for getting into the BPCR game. I've got one that I bought used at the big Kamloops show a couple of years ago. I've only recently started playing with it seriously. Accuracy-wise it looks very promising.

Chris.

 

[hickstick_10]

The rolling block is probably one of the best devices to excercise your thumb, a chubby shell, ever so slightly large bullet or fowled bore will lead to a jam. The sharps breaks parts, my shiloh has been through 2 lever springs so far, but I count my blessings since replacements are free, you'l also need a pretty stout thumb for these if you're not careful with the fouling in the throat.

If you can get the shell in and shoot it in the above guns, its usually no problem getting it out. Theres a reason you see alot of these devices at the matches. They're for seating a recalcitrant cartridge.

I've been starting to take a serious look at the toys from Providence Tool Co and CPA Rifle just from the standpoint of their camming alone, if your into a bit of tinkering CPA will build you a gun and leave the stock finishing up to you.

With our high dollar you can import a US made gun for not much more then an Italian, and the warranty that goes with it. You're going to end up buying American made sights anyways and they're an investment in themselves...........an 1875 from C sharps imported here will cost you about the same as a Pedersoli roller, factor in throwing out the pedersoli sights and replacing them with decent US made ones and the costs are comparible.

And when you break a part its a phone call to the factory for a free new one, no nightmare dealing with some importers waranty office, buying some from the US or getting a gunsmith to make a new one. The swede rolling block extracter is a very delicate part, theres a reason you see alot of them for sale with broken extractors.

Good luck in your in smokepole search and be aware shooting these rifles involves ALOT of time at the reloading bench. You can spend a day loading 100 shells, but on the upside 100 shells is a days entertainment if you factor in BS sessions, breaks from recoil and other stuff. Its lots of fun.

 

[bearhunter]

A long time ago, I had a lovely 1874 Sharps rifle that was put together by Les Viel of Vernon. I lost that rifle during a nasty divorce. That rifle fit me properly and was chambered in 45-70. Les talked me out of the 45-120. It loved cast bullets of around 450 grains with a short ogive and decent meplat.

Les made sure the rifle had a large butt to spread recoil in prone positions and that the length of pull to the trigger was exactly right for me. He also helped me develop a good load, using Fg powder and 20-1 cast bullets. The twist rate in that barrel was 1-16. Many of the shooters back then were using 1-18 or 1-20 twists. They would often get unexplained fliers.

One thing to really get a handle on, is how far you really want to wrap your head around such a rifle and how much work you're willing to put into it to get it to shoot consistently out to most ranges the fellows that do that sort of shooting work at.

I went through 4 different molds before I found one that was good at all ranges from 100 to 600 yards. The relatively fast twist rate of my barrel helped a lot and gave me some leeway. The slower twist barrels can be fussy as the distances grow. Usually around 300 yards, if the bullet is wrong for the twist, you will notice the holes in paper targets are slightly oblong. This is a sign of the bullet losing stability.

Accurate shooting at extended ranges is a combination of proper, lead/tin mix, proper bullet shape/lubrication, right bullet diameter and proper twist rate for the particular bullet you finally decide to use.

Seating depths and a decision of paper patching are also important. Some rifles like a bit of free bore and some like their bullets jammed into the lands.

It goes on and on. Different land shapes as well as muzzle finish etc. Some of it is meaningless. Some of it is crucial. I will be up to you to decide.

Many people that get into BPCR shooting, burn out fairly quickly. It is an expensive game for one thing. Most rifles that are competitive start at $3000 and go up from there. Sights are very expensive as well.

If you want to get an idea of what successful BPCR shooters go through in time and money, Google Mike Venturino and BPCR shooting.

He is quite well established in the sport and writes a lot of articles promoting it. He has access to the best gunsmiths in the business because they want to be mentioned in Rifle and Handloader magazines.

Do your homework first. I have never heard of a case where everything comes together the first time.

Also, take a long hard look at the rifles action you finally decide on. For me, I have a short neck and arms, with a wide, thick chest. The reason I settled on the 1874 Sharps is because it was comfortable for me to shoot in all positions. Those lovely Remington actions, even with a high cheek rest butt, just never seem to fit me properly.

Then, you have to decide if you want to wait for a new rifle, usually up to 3 years or use an original action etc. Some of the new rifles, depending on who makes them need to be rebarreled almost immediately if you're going to compete. Add another $400-$700 for the barrel, $250 for sights and whatever it costs you to have it installed.

This is not a sport for the financially challenged, faint hearted or impatient person.

Then of course, you have to find a place to shoot the rifles at the extended ranges the game is meant to be played. Even though the ranges are all fixed and don't change, making sight adjustments easier, there is a question of uncertainty when it comes to cross winds and whether they are blowing straight across or at an angle. Then, there is mirage and the fact that 600+ yards downrange, the wind is likely completely different than it is at the shooting point. Those big slow bullets are definitely effected by the prevailing winds and even the heat rising from the floor of the range, rain, cloudy or clear weather. You name it, you need to learn to shoot the condition or at least anticipate it.

This is a sport for a dedicated individual, with plenty of time on their hands.

Jethunter, a member here seems to be pretty much up on this style of shooting and what is involved to become good at it. Maybe he will chime in or you can PM him.

 

[mooncoon]

For myself, ranges beyond 200 are not practical and the only range with berms beyond 200 is 2 hours away and about $50 worth of fuel. I also do not want to spend an arm and a leg for top quality sights. What I do enjoy is getting the best performance possible from the gun and sight combination that I chose to shoot. I also enjoy shooting a variety of different rifle actions

cheers mooncoon

 

[Ol' Flinter]

I decide to get into BPCR a few years ago but had no background beyond patched round balls and modern rifles. There is a lot to learn, especially about reloading! To get my feet wet relatively inexpensively, I bought a second hand Pedersoli roller in 45-70 and shot it for a year but didn't like the action and the stock shape was uncomfortable so flogged it and got a second hand Pedersoli 1874 Sharps in 45-90. It took a year of fiddling with the loads but got it shooting really well and am now going to sell it and take the real plunge. It will be a new Shilo Sharps or a Ron Smith barreled custom and preferably in a lighter caliber like 38 - 55 or 38-56 as I don't shoot much past 400 yds and won't be into 1000yd shooting at all. My advice is to get a good used gun to learn what you like and dislike, and how to load the cartridges then go for broke on the cannon of your dreams. Warning: this game is hugely addictive!

 

[gunlaker]

Ol' Flinter, you are sure right about that. This is about as adictive an actitivity as you're likely to find. I'd shoot my single shots every day if I could. As Mooncoon says, there are a lot of action types that are fun to shoot. I've limited myself to 1885 Winchesters, 1874 Sharps, Steven's, and Ruger #1's. Mostly .

To the original poster, if you can find a black powder shoot near you, you'll be able to get a good look at a number of different rifle types before you make a choice. As was mentioned earlier, rifle fit is very important. A rifle that feel right when shot off of a bench may be completely wrong when shooting prone or off-hand. I have made that particular mistake in the past.

Edit: what part of the country are you in? If you are anywhere near the lower mainland in b.c., I'd suggest popping by the Poco range on the first Sunday of any month for a blackpowder shoot. I usually have a couple of different rifles there.

Chris.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Well all that's fair enough boys - fact is I have been sniffing around this sport for years and I am in the same place Mooncoon was - proficient with smokeless and and muzzle loaders and reloading...and wanting to step back in time for new challenges. If I can make shells that can dump a white tail at 100 and hassle you and Mooncoon at the range at 200 - I'll be happier than a pig in the mud! I am not out to steal gold medals from the cool kids yet. Most of the people I've had the pleasure of speaking with have said the same things you fellas have. It's decision time.

I have pretty much settled on .45-70 Gov't for my caliber - I don't want hassles with scarce brass, and the black powder geeks I have been reading are saying the optimal barrel length is about 30". The action will have to be a falling block Sharps or the 1885 pattern High Wall. Ideally I want that pipe to be half round/half octagonal like the one on Rex's rolling block in that pic a few posts up. I am up in the air about finnish - I want a gun that can go into the field as well as the range and think that a plain, duller, more utilitarian gun will be a good place to start.

You have one week gentlemen! Do you have (or do you know somebody that has) a good rifle for a beginner that needs a new home? I have a pal and can pay by EMT if the deal is reasonable...PM me if you spot something! Otherwise I will just by a new repro and get started that way. Please let me know if you have any shoots in Alberta, BC or Saskatchewan that will allow the informal newbie to take part!

Cheers!

Jim

 

[gunlaker]

Jim, the Kamloops silhouette shoot is a pile of fun ( June I believe ). The people there are really great. There are a bunch of shoots in Alberta ( check bpcrwest.com) I haven't been to the Albertan ones yet but I want to...

I think that there are plenty of informal shoots around the country. We have very informal 100m offhand shoots once a month in Port Coquitlam for both muzzleloaders and cartridge rifles.

The .45-70's are an excellent choice. The .40-65 is also nice because it can be formed from .45-70 brass very easily ( just run it through a .40-65 sizer die and trim ). If you are only concerned with distances up to 300m then you might want to consider a .38-55 based on the long Starline brass ( although some shoot silhouette with them just fine ). The recoil is very pleasant, and brass availability is not bad, but definitely a bit harder to come by than .45-70.

Chris.

 

[mooncoon]

If you get a faster twist barrel, I like the 38-56 with a 300 grain loverin style bullet. There is relatively little recoil and the slug will knock down a ram at 500 meters. The shell is formed from a 45-70 shell neck down to 38 and holds 5 - 10 grains more than a 38-55. That is especially true if you have a throat that is long enough to have only about 1/4 of the slug seated in the shell

cheers mooncoon

 

[hickstick_10]

You have one week gentlemen! Do you have (or do you know somebody that has) a good rifle for a beginner that needs a new home? I have a pal and can pay by EMT if the deal is reasonable...PM me if you spot something! Otherwise I will just by a new repro and get started that way. Please let me know if you have any shoots in Alberta, BC or Saskatchewan that will allow the informal newbie to take part!

Cheers!

Jim

Whats your budget?

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Whats your budget?

I am up in the air with that right now, Hick. I would like to think I can get a starter/intermediate rifle going for around $2500.00~$3000.00. I am thinking a mid-range sight will work if I limit myself to 500 yards... and no way will I cheap out on sights. It looks to me like Soule are the king of the hill but if you know better please let me know! If nothing turns up I will go a bit more but probably after tax time. I just checked out that BPCR West website and that looks like a lot of fun.

As I get older the idea of potting a doe and lounging about my outfitter tent afterward just seems like heaven on earth.