building a muzzleloader

well I've been busy with my 100's of other projects i have on the go and my 7.62x25 chamber reamer showed up last week. but i got some more work done on the musket,

i ended up making a new breech plug, its almost the same thing but M30 thread and i didn't use a hex on it i just put two flats at 30mm across, ill just take the barrel out when i want to remove the breech plug. I'm making this as i go so I'm sure ill change a few things as i make them.

i have the breech plug finished now, and made the 209 nipple. it has a 1mm flash hole and the not so great drawing i added shows the other dimensions of the plugs inner workings. as of now its able to be tested and proofed, ill bolt the other half the barrel retainer to a log to be easily able to hold the barrel,

i need to finish the way to fire it still, i have the trigger/sear and hammer done, i still need to mount them and make a spring, its very much the same as a single shot cooey 84 shotgun design, just bigger

here are some pics of it so far

38250641231_24842f15c0_z.jpg


38250620131_3ddb434d40_z.jpg


38196071056_f5c80023fb_z.jpg


26474729739_1203105124_z.jpg


38218896702_de1c293a26_z.jpg


26474686189_c17cae8a8b_z.jpg


37540106084_a9dab74458_z.jpg
 
so i ended up getting the trigger assembly and hammer finished, its the correct height to line up with the 209 primer when placed on the same plane in the stock, it has quite a bit of force when the hammer drops, probably to much really. and makes for a heavy trigger, its about a 6 pound pull but when the trigger moves it fires, its pretty crisp.

the may i made it was using a cooey 84 for design, spring and little rod. the bolt in the back needs to be changed for a set screw, that is to adjust the hammer weight. the hammer it self has a small counter bore for the primer rim and also a hole to tap the firing pin into.

i made the hammer and sear/trigger out of O2 tool steal and oil hardened then tempered back a bit, the pins are just temporary to be able to test it, ill used drill rod for that.

so now i have all the metal parts of the rifle together, well i still need to make a floor plate once i get the stock started and the barrel inletted to see where everything fall into place

37709413634_5aa7b1aae4_z.jpg



38423977751_011a7ccc8a_z.jpg


38368109826_0a3f6f7d8d_z.jpg

38392593522_f09b579111_z.jpg


38368046716_95d65f898b_z.jpg
 
Well the primer is a slip fit so it wont fall out while walking but know it may need something to stop it from recocking the rifle and blowing primer in my face. Tbh i was going to proof it like it is and see what happens. And if its a bit much il make a new nipples that is threaded on the od and make a little cap for it with a fireing pin hole in it.
 
Fingers284, no problem man and thanks i was pleased with the outcome. A few guys at work told me not to be surprized if the drill started coming out of the side of the round bar before it makes it to the end. Lucky for my it worked well. It still alowed me to have a 4.5mm wall at the muzzle.

Rayleigh, interesting. Thanks for the warning. My breach plug seals at the end of it. The bore is 22mm and the end of the breach plug is 25mm and there is a 0.010 gap at the back when threaded in tight so i know its sealing on the face and the threads are not exposed to the pressures/gasses. But after the proof loads i do plan on measuring barrel swell in a few places and checking the back and forth movment of the threads.

The tenth pic in the first post shows the seal face inside of the barrel

My load i want to shot is 250gr black powder using a 1000gr cloth patched lead ball, im going to proof it with 350gr of FFG. And fire 5 proofing loads via a string.

I may be overstepping my bounds here and don't want to offend in any way but I am very interested in how much experience you have had with large BP charges and if I may I would like to relay my experiences using that much powder. I don't think I would ever relish the chance to pull the trigger on even a 15 lb rifle with 250 gr of black pushing a 1000 gr ball LOL

I have two cannons ( 3 actually, 2 tubes fit one carriage) that I will load with anywhere from 300 gr of 1F for the 1/2 scale (1.624 bore) to 3 oz for the full size 2.624 bore. I will key on the 1.6 bore ones as they are closer to your project.

Both of my smaller tubes are 36" long and have a min of .500 wall thickness from end to end, as well both have a .500 wall thickness "collar" at the breech end for a length of 8 " or so ( total wall thickness is 1.00 at breech), as you can see they are considerably beefier than your barrel. All the time I was building mine I had it in my mind that I was being my usual "farmer builder-over cautious self" and maybe I was but my guns are fire a lot with 40 or 50 spectators around all the time so after firing those guns personally I am glad I was overbuilding them.

Now for the brass tacks of firing 300 gr of black. I have two different rounds I use in them, one, just a noise maker -blank round and a 15 oz. round steel ball "projectile round". The blank round is still 300 gr of powder but it is only a 3 layer cylinder of Aluminum foil long enough to hold the powder charge, no projectile or wadding of any kind is used and believe me the sound effect is sufficient to get everybody's attention. The muzzle flash/fire from this round easily extends 15-20 ft from muzzle and smoke is almost twice as far.

The projectile round (closer to what you are describing to use) impressed me to no end as to it ferocity upon firing and equal downrange destruction. Of course the 15 oz ball I use is much heavier than you will use but bear with me as the powder charges are not that much different. I have tried this 300 gr/ 15 oz steel ball load in energy tests 3 different times. The first was at a 1/2 sheet of 1/4 mild steel plate leaning loosely against a 2x4 prop-up (no pressure on it from the back, just its own weight as resistance) from about 40 yrds. That 1/2 sheet of steel violently cartwheeled backward a ful 360 deg and then some when it was hit. the steel ball almost went completely through the plate, if the plate would have been solidly anchored I think it would have.

The second testing was with 24" long green cut logs about 14" in dia. The steel ball wouldn't completely travel the full 24 " but very close to it...the logs would be split in 3 or 4 pieces from end to end.

The third test was a hit on a 1/4" thick 48" "tempered steel" lumber mill saw blade at 100 yards, again an almost full perforation (this time the steel blade had some backing from a stand)...enough to dent 2/3 the size of the ball and break the steel open behind the hit.

Two more point I want to convey and then I will get off my "soap box".

The recoil of my little cannons are one thing that concerns me about your plans. My little guns weigh in around 80 lbs. with the carriage and with the carnage trail just laying on the ground, with the blank round it will roll back a foot and with the projectile load it will easily recoil 3 ft.

The last point is that I have chrono'd the 15 oz. projectile round twice and got a reading of 1350 fps ( someone on this forum informed me that that equals somewhere in the 26,000 ft lb. of energy...3 time that of a .458 win mag) ...again, your projectile is considerably less in weight but with your suggested powder charge firing a 15 lb hand held gun wouldn't be on my "bucket list".

Again I apologize if you take this offensively...not my intension at all...just that if your not used to it - 250-300 gr of blk is very much more violent than a regular 100 gr muzzleloader charge.
 
Edit: i should add, just because the rifle will be proofed for 250gr loads. Doesnt mean thats all ill shoot. To be able too and actually do it or two different things. I would like to work up to 250gr though. But ill start at 75 and head up wards.

Good post and ill reply a better reply after work. But where i got the idea for the lead was from 4 and 8 bore loads. They are about 350gr and a 1700gr bullets. Ill post the load data i was looking at. Also wiki had info on 4 bore rifkes and they show over 375gr per load. Ill reply to noat of your post when i get on a computer

This has some 8 and 4 bore load. https://www.shootersforum.com/muzzleloaders/22942-8-bore-4bore-findings.html?nocache=1511550580059

" In the mid-1870s, Selous favoured a four bore black powder muzzleloader for killing elephant, a 13 lb (5.9 kg) short barreled musket firing a quarter pound bullet with as much as 20 drams (540 grains) of black powder. He could wield it even from horseback."
 
Last edited:
I have a original 8 bore rifle from Africa, but likely made by WW Greener bore measures .835 and the weight of the gun is about 9 pounds, in this gun i have been firing 120 to 150 grains of 2F powder and a 800 grain ball, you know when it goes off but it is shoot able
I have fired a 24 pound 4 bore double rifle 4 inch cases loads were 400 grains of powder and a 1850 grain bullet, you would need to practice a lot with it as i fires 2 shots and that was enough for 1 day so to use it for hunting you would need to spend time so you could handle it.

With the smooth bore barrel your pressures should be lower then a rifled barrel and with the 4140 steel i would think you shouldn't have problems, my 8 bore is Damascus as a lot of the old guns were
 
Edit: i should add, just because the rifle will be proofed for 250gr loads. Doesnt mean thats all ill shoot. To be able too and actually do it or two different things. I would like to work up to 250gr though. But ill start at 75 and head up wards.

Good post and ill reply a better reply after work. But where i got the idea for the lead was from 4 and 8 bore loads. They are about 350gr and a 1700gr bullets. Ill post the load data i was looking at. Also wiki had info on 4 bore rifkes and they show over 375gr per load. Ill reply to noat of your post when i get on a computer

This has some 8 and 4 bore load. https://www.shootersforum.com/muzzleloaders/22942-8-bore-4bore-findings.html?nocache=1511550580059

" In the mid-1870s, Selous favoured a four bore black powder muzzleloader for killing elephant, a 13 lb (5.9 kg) short barreled musket firing a quarter pound bullet with as much as 20 drams (540 grains) of black powder. He could wield it even from horseback."


LOL...its funny how quotes from eons ago get passed around that contradict each other, years ago I was reading an article in a U.S. gun rag on Elephant rifles over the ages and a "supposed" direct quote from a Selous auto biography ;

" I had sat in the shade of a big tree for three days nursing another dislocated shoulder and the realization hit me that if I didn't change guns to something more manageable that the problem elephant population was going to increase faster than I could control them. " The story went on to tell of how he started pulling bullets on a 7x57 and re-seating them backward, used them on hundreds of animals with excellent success.

Don't know witch quote is right but they sure oppose each other.
 
I have an original 5 guage smooth rifle and when I shoot it, the load is a .935 patched round ball (roughly 1200 grains) and 230 grains of 1F. The gun weighs roughly 14 lbs. The recoil is manageable but you would have to shoot it for a while to get used to it. It is several years since I last shot it because in part, I tend to develop a bit of a flinch when shooting the gun. I also think that a large wide butt stock would serve you very well.

the gun at the top of the group is the 5 guage

cheers mooncoon

bdKqizV.jpg


4fp3QtX.jpg
 
Last edited:
Fingers284, im pretty excited to have a big bore rifle, i see where you are coming from in regards to its going to have one hell of a kick to it. and as posted in the other post i made, just because i can use 250gr BP doesn't mean i will, every shot. but to have the option will be great. and as of the thickness of the barrel, im sure it will be fine, its 4140 steel drilled form a solid bar, the Damascus guns hold up without issue and also have thinner barrels then this. this should be well over built for the job its doing. and im sure canons have the weight to them to stop them from moving when firing them, if this gun was set just laying on the floor and set off id bet it would travel 30 feet in the other direction, a cannon of this size moves a few feet

im excited to work up to the 250gr load, but after proofing it with 350gr ill back off to about 75-100gr for my first test fires.


WR1894- those sound like nice rilfes you have spoke about, the 4 bore double sounds just crazy though lol, I'm surprised you don't need two small men and a boy to fire that thing. id like to see a few pics of your 8 bores if you have the time some day. and smooth bore round patched ball and 4140 barrel has me feeling this should be safe, id bet pretty low pressures. probably in the 8-12k psi range id guess by looking at 8 bore load data.

finger284- lol yeah I've read a few quotes like that [basically 100% opposite but by the same person], i wonder if the quote i posted was from about 10 years earlier then the one you did, there was no smokeless in the days of the quote i posted and the 7x57 was made in 1892, so im sure it was better and a lot easier on the person shooting it. there is A LOT to be said about velocity's killing power, and the lack of recoil so the shooter can take as many shots as needed without injury

Mooncoon, WOW now that's a rifle. that's just awesome, thanks for the load data and also the pics, the one of you firing it is cool, it seems like its quite the blast to fire that thing.


i got some work done on the stock, i milled the barrel channel into the stock, the barrel is 100% free floating also cutout the floor plate section and milled the pocket for the recoil/barrel mounting lug, ill get pics posted up soon, internet wont upload them right now, stupid weather outside.
 
i used a sporter 71/84 mauser stock to get the basic shape, the stock as it sits now is 46 inches long and the rifles over all length is 53 inches and the stock as it sits now weights 5.5 pounds, im also going to make some sort of nose cap for the rifle. im thinking out of brass
im not sure of the style yet though, im thinking LEC nose cap but the ears will look silly with no sight between them and the sight that far from the end of the barrel may look odd. ill have o think about that.

38788999271_df9e84e25f_z.jpg


24916156048_7e3a534048_z.jpg


38788927751_5409083cc9_z.jpg


38072531954_ba05ea1c05_z.jpg


38072615624_a5a5efe671_z.jpg


24916285768_49f3e96e8b_z.jpg


37903138435_6ce0d74740_k.jpg
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom