Building the Best Canadian Made Pistol Carbine (Non-Restricted!)

I'm missing the point

I look at the competition, which to me is:

Low End: 9mm
Hack round in rifle so:
  • Chippa M1 in 9mm (Beretta 92 Mags) $500 - cheap and rugged
  • Keltec sub2000 (Glock and allegedly other Mags) $750 - folds and weighs 4.5lbs

High End: 357
Good-ish rifle cartridge with lots and lots of ammunition choices. People hunt with them. A lever gun can handle downloaded 38 special to hot rifle rounds, without tuning. So...

  • Marlin 336BL $650
  • Henry Big Boy $1050 (both current Cabelas price)
And a revolver for the range (there are pistols and mares legs too).

What does this proposed $1400 PPC bring to the table that the existing (cheaper) alternatives don't?
 
Sounds interesting.

Don't care, for most of the questions.

For Q5, as long as the weight is reasonable, it is more about the balance of the AR with it's rear buffer that is unique (better) than most semi.

For Q8, the important factor with a NR barrel is that it has to be long enough so the long barrel doesn't look ridiculous.

For price, lower the better.

Apart from that, a few things are important:
Reliability
Accuracy
Parts availability
AR trigger compatibility
Glock mags
Optics ready
 
whimsy said:
I look at the competition, which to me is:

Low End: 9mm
Hack round in rifle so:
  • Chippa M1 in 9mm (Beretta 92 Mags) $500 - cheap and rugged
  • Keltec sub2000 (Glock and allegedly other Mags) $750 - folds and weighs 4.5lbs

High End: 357
Good-ish rifle cartridge with lots and lots of ammunition choices. People hunt with them. A lever gun can handle downloaded 38 special to hot rifle rounds, without tuning. So...

  • Marlin 336BL $650
  • Henry Big Boy $1050 (both current Cabelas price)
And a revolver for the range (there are pistols and mares legs too).

What does this proposed $1400 PPC bring to the table that the existing (cheaper) alternatives don't?
Click to expand...

I have to argue that 9mm is a good round for what this gun is intended for(well what I intend to do with it anyways) which is just some non restricted fun plinking or maybe some very small game?

I'm running a 5" barrel 9mm AR right now that I absolutely love,it's fun(10 round mags) and it's cheap to shoot,only drag is its restricted so it's a range toy.

I've used that thing at 50 meters and was more accurate then I would have thought possible given its short barrel and 9mm ammo.
Granted I know 9mm is not the ideal calibre for an 18.5" barrel,but considering that we have to stick to that length,and anything bigger then 9mm is pretty costly(to the point where I'd just shoot .223 ) I think 9mm is the ideal candidate here.

As far as the actual gun,some people just don't want a lever action or what's already available,I dabble in a bit of Milsurp and I love a good lever action,but my main Interest is black rifles,or "modern sporting rifles" so I'm very interested in a NR carbine that looks at home right next to my AR's and currently what's available in that market is pretty underwhelming,


Currently competitors for this market are:
-Jr carbine,kinda cheaply built ,not very easy to work on,and from what I've seen not really all that reliable
-Thureon defense PCC's ,similar idea as the Jr,but much better fit and finish and nicer quality.
-cz scorpion,no 10 round mags,has to have an aftermarket barrel fitted to be NR
-sig MPX ,same issue as the CZ.
-keltecs....well,they still haven't quite figured out the QC issues
-x95 in 9mm,only downside to this is cost and the mags are 5 rounds (mostly)
-kriss vector...that giant phoney suppressor is horrible.
-cx4 storm,honestly my only gripe is the mags
 
What I probably should have asked is:

Is this supposed to be a FUN GUN or a SERIOUS RIFLE?

As a fun gun, it seems overkill. As a serious rifle, I think the cailbers will let it down.

The justifications for PCCs are more limited in Canada than the US, and as such I'm confused.

(But US justifications do appy to CDN police. It'd be great if it were sold to the RCMP, because every rural RCMP car should come equipt with headlights and some kind of rifle.)
 
To make this as short, and straight to the point as possible... Here we go!

1) How many firearms are made in Canada? Answer. Not enough!
We're Canadian and proud of it.


2) Why make a new PCC when there is this option, and that option, and this option already avail?
If you think the BRS-99 at 1,599.00 + 299 for a barrel upgrade to make it NR, is the rifle for you... Then your mind is already made up and you most likely don't even care about our project.
Not even getting to the facts to mention that $299 barrel is non threaded, and plain jane regular steel.


3) What are we going to do differently?
Instead of charging you $300 for a lame barrel, we want to offer you a Stainless Steel, Carbon Wrapped Barrel that is threaded for LESS money! Did I mention made in the USA??? Not in where-ever-the-stan.
The goal is, high end, functional, reliable, and a FAIR price.


4) We're getting a lot of calls, and emails, social media messages and the rest with people offering their ideas such as
"Make is real cheap, heavy, and clunky"
"Who cares what it looks like..."
"Make it 500$"
"Why don't you just offer a heavy, steel, barrel and make the price lower?"

There is already heavy, boring, semi-functional products on the market. If you want them, get them. If you want more for your money... keep reading
The plan is to take a $650 ultra high end barrel and offset the costs enough from hacking away our profits to make this affordable for the average shooter. Does it make us a ton of money?? NO.
Do we plan on cutting any corners on manufacturing? NO.

*Point to note* We have put out many quote requests to barrel manufactures. The cost savings from plain steel to SS Carbon is too small to offset the lameness of lower end barrels.
Barrel Color options: (BLACK), (BLACK / RED), (FLAT DARK EARTH)

If you are the kind of person that would go out to a fancy restaurant and not pay an extra $2 to upgrade your side to what you really wanted... then you're not going to ever agree with us.
If you are the kind of person who appreciates great value. You'll probably love that we're trying to go above and beyond for our clients.


5) But I just want it simple, without extras!
We're heard a lot of people saying they don't need anything special. They just want reliable, Canadian Made, and for the best price possible.
No problem! Any good company, listens to what people want.

At this time, we do plan on releasing a base model, without many extras, as well as a fully loaded option


6) Future Growth. This is the first step, building a PCC. Next... who knows! We want to make semi auto rifle calibers too
Stay tuned.
 
lockharttactical said:
To make this as short, and straight to the point as possible... Here we go!

1) How many firearms are made in Canada? Answer. Not enough!
We're Canadian and proud of it.


2) Why make a new PCC when there is this option, and that option, and this option already avail?
If you think the BRS-99 at 1,599.00 + 299 for a barrel upgrade to make it NR, is the rifle for you... Then your mind is already made up and you most likely don't even care about our project.
Not even getting to the facts to mention that $299 barrel is non threaded, and plain jane regular steel.


3) What are we going to do differently?
Instead of charging you $300 for a lame barrel, we want to offer you a Stainless Steel, Carbon Wrapped Barrel that is threaded for LESS money! Did I mention made in the USA??? Not in where-ever-the-stan.
The goal is, high end, functional, reliable, and a FAIR price.


4) We're getting a lot of calls, and emails, social media messages and the rest with people offering their ideas such as
"Make is real cheap, heavy, and clunky"
"Who cares what it looks like..."
"Make it 500$"
"Why don't you just offer a heavy, steel, barrel and make the price lower?"

There is already heavy, boring, semi-functional products on the market. If you want them, get them. If you want more for your money... keep reading
The plan is to take a $650 ultra high end barrel and offset the costs enough from hacking away our profits to make this affordable for the average shooter. Does it make us a ton of money?? NO.
Do we plan on cutting any corners on manufacturing? NO.

*Point to note* We have put out many quote requests to barrel manufactures. The cost savings from plain steel to SS Carbon is too small to offset the lameness of lower end barrels.
Barrel Color options: (BLACK), (BLACK / RED), (FLAT DARK EARTH)

If you are the kind of person that would go out to a fancy restaurant and not pay an extra $2 to upgrade your side to what you really wanted... then you're not going to ever agree with us.
If you are the kind of person who appreciates great value. You'll probably love that we're trying to go above and beyond for our clients.


5) But I just want it simple, without extras!
We're heard a lot of people saying they don't need anything special. They just want reliable, Canadian Made, and for the best price possible.
No problem! Any good company, listens to what people want.

At this time, we do plan on releasing a base model, without many extras, as well as a fully loaded option


6) Future Growth. This is the first step, building a PCC. Next... who knows! We want to make semi auto rifle calibers too
Stay tuned.
Click to expand...

NOW you have my attention.
 
lockharttactical said:
To make this as short, and straight to the point as possible... Here we go!

1) How many firearms are made in Canada? Answer. Not enough!
We're Canadian and proud of it.


2) Why make a new PCC when there is this option, and that option, and this option already avail?
If you think the BRS-99 at 1,599.00 + 299 for a barrel upgrade to make it NR, is the rifle for you... Then your mind is already made up and you most likely don't even care about our project.
Not even getting to the facts to mention that $299 barrel is non threaded, and plain jane regular steel.


3) What are we going to do differently?
Instead of charging you $300 for a lame barrel, we want to offer you a Stainless Steel, Carbon Wrapped Barrel that is threaded for LESS money! Did I mention made in the USA??? Not in where-ever-the-stan.
The goal is, high end, functional, reliable, and a FAIR price.


4) We're getting a lot of calls, and emails, social media messages and the rest with people offering their ideas such as
"Make is real cheap, heavy, and clunky"
"Who cares what it looks like..."
"Make it 500$"
"Why don't you just offer a heavy, steel, barrel and make the price lower?"

There is already heavy, boring, semi-functional products on the market. If you want them, get them. If you want more for your money... keep reading
The plan is to take a $650 ultra high end barrel and offset the costs enough from hacking away our profits to make this affordable for the average shooter. Does it make us a ton of money?? NO.
Do we plan on cutting any corners on manufacturing? NO.

*Point to note* We have put out many quote requests to barrel manufactures. The cost savings from plain steel to SS Carbon is too small to offset the lameness of lower end barrels.
Barrel Color options: (BLACK), (BLACK / RED), (FLAT DARK EARTH)

If you are the kind of person that would go out to a fancy restaurant and not pay an extra $2 to upgrade your side to what you really wanted... then you're not going to ever agree with us.
If you are the kind of person who appreciates great value. You'll probably love that we're trying to go above and beyond for our clients.


5) But I just want it simple, without extras!
We're heard a lot of people saying they don't need anything special. They just want reliable, Canadian Made, and for the best price possible.
No problem! Any good company, listens to what people want.

At this time, we do plan on releasing a base model, without many extras, as well as a fully loaded option


6) Future Growth. This is the first step, building a PCC. Next... who knows! We want to make semi auto rifle calibers too
Stay tuned.
Click to expand...
agree 1000000%
after reading this, I don't even care if it looks like a brick with a trigger. I will purchase one and support this. So sick of everyone #####ing about costs
when you are already going out of your way. People need to learn how to save or find a cheaper hobby like knitting.
 
There is already lots of cheap stuff on the market. I own some cheap stuff, and they fill a niche. But I see no reason to bring a new Canadian made firearm to market that is designed to meet a Chinese price point.

Make it good, don't make it to satisfy the "It's gotta be cheap" crowd. There is no winning the race to the bottom game.
 
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