Bull Barrel Advantages

On hot days, when i know I will shoot alot , I just take a cooler of ice to cool down the barrel. RUb it with some ice, and it cools down fast.

I also have a bottle of CO2 here which comes out nice and cold, gotta fit some sort of hose to it, and you can just stick it in the chamber and give it a squirt to coo everything down.

The best aspect of these ow tech cooling soutions is that it avoids discussion involving science between internet warriors.;)
 
I have not seen any proof yet....
You fellas that profess to be schooled in thermodynamics have not supplied one shred of research to prove your argument. Did the bus that went to your school have big flowers on the side? If it did that was not university, your Mom was lying to you. Check in your Transformers lunch box there might be a relevant paper to prove your theory.
I'm serious....;)















I am keeping a straight face...:p
 
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http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RealBenefitsBarrelFluting.asp

Heat Transfer
Get ready to be blown away. There is another misconception about fluting in relation to cooling the barrel.

Some people believe that fluted barrel cool off faster than regular barrel because the surface area of a fluted barrel is greater than a plain one. I am sorry to say that this is absolute fallacy. Fluted barrels indeed cool off faster than a plain barrel of the same diameter, and not because of surface area, it is because of other factors.

Here's why:
Let us say you fire 10 rounds in 10 seconds in a hunting rifle. And at the same time your friend also fires 10 rounds in 10 seconds in a bull barreled varmint rifle. We all know that heat is generated as a result of the bullet going through the bore at a high rate of speed, causing friction and releasing energy. Now, the temperature inside both barrels should theoretically be equal, but the temperature on the surface of the hunting rifle will be a lot hotter than the temperature on the surface of the varminter. It is because the wall of the hunting rifle is a lot thinner than the wall of a varminter. The closer you are to the heat source (the bore of the rifle) the hotter it is on the surface of the barrel. Makes sense? In essence, the thickness of the barrel acts as an insulation. In short, the thinner the wall, the faster the heat reaches the surface and the faster the heat will be dissipated into and equalized within the ambient (outside) temperature. This type of heat transfer is called conduction (the other two are convection and radiation).

Here is an excellent analogy. We love to barbecue in the summer. Place an aluminum foil on the grill to cook you burgers. After you burgers are cooked, remove the aluminum foil and notice that it cools off almost immediately. Now fold the aluminum foil to make it thicker and put it back on the grill. Remove it afterwards and you will notice that it does not cool off as fast. It is the same analogy with barrels. In short, hunting rifles dissipate heat quicker than varminters do.

So how does fluting aid in heat dissipation? Basically, as materials are removed the flutes become closer to the bore. So when the bore gets hot after firing several rounds, the heat generated reaches the surface of the flutes a lot faster than a plain barrel of the same diameter.

Conclusions
In conclusion, a regular plain barrel is a lot stiffer than a fluted barrel of the same outside diameter; however, a fluted barrel is a lot stiffer than a regular barrel of the same weight. Fluting will definitely dissipate heat quickly. And it is not because the surface area is increased; it is because the heat is allowed to reach the outside temperature at a faster rate by removing materials. If your bull barrel becomes unbearably hot on the surface, it is safe to assume that the bore temperature is at a point where it can literally dissolve soft materials. This will damage your bore in the long run.

So if you wish to flute your barrel, it should be because you want to reduce the overall weight of your rifle and you want your barrel to cool at a faster rate. Fluting your barrel with the belief that it will add stiffness just doesn't make any scientific sense.
 
BIGREDD said:
I have not seen any proof yet........

Yes, you have. You just refuse to accept it.

.........there might be a relevant paper to prove your theory.

Wrong again! You are the one that has to prove your position.



Okay, this time it's not a suggestion, it's a challenge! You are the one repeatedly offering only theory and conjecture.

I hereby challenge you, BIGGREDD, to take two rifles to the range, same caliber, one heavy barrel and one sporter weight. Shoot both until the barrels are hot, set them both aside, and then time them to see which one cools down slowest. This is so simple, anyone can do it, even a knothead. :eek:



Quit being such a jerk and try it!!!!!! :D


Ted
 
As for handi's the the ultra lights have a tendencey to be very ammo particular and can be harder to get to shoot well, though the 223 version and hornet version less so. The most likly explinantion is that the weight of the barrel helps keep the lock up more consistant.

Even though I like my handi 204 (btw it shoots great) if I was to get an econo 223 I would get the Stevens light barrel and all. But after I shot the 204 I will never buy a 223 again. Thats where the handi has an advantage it has a slightly wider cartridge selection over the stevens.

I had one of my sons(10) handling a 243 superlight he actually could handle it reasonably well, and my 204 is about the same weight as a standard sporter rifle, so hauling it around is no real issue, and it is way lighter than most HB varmint guns.
 
Why not? said:


Okay, this time it's not a suggestion, it's a challenge! You are the one repeatedly offering only theory and conjecture.

I hereby challenge you, BIGGREDD, to take two rifles to the range, same caliber, one heavy barrel and one sporter weight. Shoot both until the barrels are hot, set them both aside, and then time them to see which one cools down slowest. This is so simple, anyone can do it, even a knot head. :eek:



Quit being such a jerk and try it!!!!!! :D


Ted


You don't have to yell Ted... I can hear just fine thanks.

I have done what you suggest many times... with heavy, medium and sporter weight barrels. And you are right... but I would have to shoot FOUR TIMES THE NUMBER OF ROUNDS through the heavy barrel to get it hot:rolleyes: . And I also know that it does not take four times as long for that same heavy barrel to cool down as the sporter weight... Guaranteed:redface: . So if I shoot repeated string of shots using a temperature guage and shut both barrels down when they reach a certain high temp and start firing again when they reach the same cooler temp... over time the heavy barrel will shoot more rounds down range. And the longer the amount of time you do this the more the round count will increase in favor of the heavy barrel. And you know this to be true.. anyone on the forum who has both heavy and sporter weights knows this to be true.:rolleyes:
Also for those of you with closed minds look at it this way If I shoot ten rounds through a sporter barrel and ten rounds through a heavy barrel at the same time and set them aside to see which one cools enough to shoot again the heavy barrel will be ready first.... cuz it is not as hot in the first place.:eek:
Even a Knot head can see the simplicity of that logic!:mad:

Ted I admittedly was fishing with this thread... but not for you... sorry bud no hard feelings. :)

To those graduates from Burger King University... I'm still waiting for the science... :confused:
 
BIGREDD said:
... but I would have to shoot FOUR TIMES THE NUMBER OF ROUNDS through the heavy barrel to get it hot:rolleyes: . And I also know that it does not take four times as long for that same heavy barrel to cool down as the sporter weight...:

This has been my experience as well.

I can shoot alot more rounds through my HB 22-250AI-a fire breathing dragon:p- than with my light barrel 223, before the HB heats up to the same temp as the ight barreled 223.

:cool: .
 
The metal in a barrel acts as a heat sink. the larger the heat sink the longer it will take to heat up. If you use the same amount of fuel or bullets in this case, the smaller barrel will heat faster as it has less material to absorb the heat i.e. it takes more time to cook a turkey at the same temperature than a chicken. To cook the turkey you gotta cook it longer. When they reach the same temperature the chicken being smaller will cool faster as it has a larger surface area to mass ratio than the turkey.

A small barrel will heat faster and get hotter using the same amount of shots as a larger heavier barrel with more mass to heat, so since the larger barrel dosen't get as hot with the same amount of shots as the light barrel to begin with it may seem to cool faster, might give the illusion that heavy barrels cool faster when in reality when they are both heated to the exact same temp the one with the most surface area to mass will cool faster and that would be the skinny sporter barrel.
 
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prosper said:
Dude, you're so not worth it

You are the one with the education... or at least that is what you imply with your post, all I am asking is that you prove your theory. Otherwise your opinion is just that... only an opinion.
I would glady accept your position and cede the debate if you prove your position... but you can't.
When I read stuff like your last post I get a mental picture of a little kid with his bottom lip stuck out kicking rocks on his way home to his Momma.:p

I am sure everyone here knows I thrive on debate... I really don't care whether I am right or wrong... I will gladly admit to being wrong if it is proven.

“Information, usually seen as the precondition of debate, is better understood as its by-product.”
Christopher Lasch


"When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.”
Addison Whithecomb
 
I was thinking about a similar experiment.

Using a laser thermometer and a stopwatch, I was thinking about heating with a propane torch, different sizes, and thicknesses of piping and watching how fast it would take to go from one temp to another. Length of pipe would be the same.

Something like bring it up to 150deg F and thiming how long it takes to cool down to to a specified temp.

Do you think it would be fair to use solid bar stock? Say 2" and compare it to 1"??




 
I think that the experiment should be done with rifle barrels and a proper temp guage... and with bullets heating from the inside out from the throat to the muzzle. The only way to be sure... is with the real thing.
You know Super I have been dragging my mouse and talking to a lot of people about this trying to get a definitve answer. Everyone has a different opinion... but no one has me convinced.:confused:
It is going to be hard to get someone to put a couple of hundred rounds worth of wear on their barrels to test this.....:(
 
BIGREDD said:
I think that the experiment should be done with rifle barrels and a proper temp guage... and with bullets heating from the inside out from the throat to the muzzle. The only way to be sure... is with the real thing.
You know Super I have been dragging my mouse and talking to a lot of people about this trying to get a definitve answer. Everyone has a different opinion... but no one has me convinced.:confused:
It is going to be hard to get someone to put a couple of hundred rounds worth of wear on their barrels to test this.....:(

Maybe someone has a couple of beater bbls to donate. They would have to be the same caliber. I'll see if Rembo has something kicking around.

I don't see why heating with a torch wouldn't be a good idea. As long as both bbls were brought to the same temp, it would be a fair comparision.

Also, we use laser temp gauges at work for weld preheat and stress relieving. They are very accurate.
 
Not familiar with the laser temp guages... sounds like doctor evil stuff.
Heating with a torch is not going to establish round counts with regard to heating... it will establish cooling times from a specific temp to a specific temp only.
 
BIGREDD said:
Not familiar with the laser temp guages... sounds like doctor evil stuff.
Heating with a torch is not going to establish round counts with regard to heating... it will establish cooling times from a specific temp to a specific temp only.
looks liek a mini h-gun
minitemp.jpg

point at a surface squeeze trigger a laser measures the temp of object extremely accurate
if you guys decide to do this test and need one let me know i can loan you one
 
The Answer Is Here!!!!!

So bull vs. regular which cools faster??????

In natural convection i.e. a barrel in completely still air the SMALL BARRREL COOLS FASTER!!!!

If you don't want the long boring mathmatical explination than stop there. If you do want it hear goes......

Assume:
1. natural convection
2. surrondings are large compared to surface area (comes in handy for radiation)
3. Barrrel is isothermal through its cross section (high conductance)
4. hot temp of both barrels, forget how many shots to get them there they are both the same!! 150 C
5. surronding air temp 20 C

Threee amin factors effect heat transfer rate in natural convection; prandlt number,l Rayleigh number and nuseult number.

Using a formulation by Churchill ( a very famous fluid dynamics and heat transfer scientist) the following expression governs heat transfer rate per unit length over a very wide range of reynolds numbers. With this expresson you don't need to worry about the type of flow, turrbluent/laminar....

Nu= 0.6 + .387*Ra^(1/6)/(1+(.559/Pr)^(9/16))^8/27)

where
Ra= g*Beta*(Temp barrel- Temp air) Dia^3/( mu*alpha)

Dia is the diameter of the barrel in question everything else is the same from properties of the air and film temperature.

Pr is the prandlt number based on the film temp of air

H= K*Dia/ Nu
K is a property and Nu is above and of course diameter
We are almost there

Now heat transfer rate per unit length is

q=convertion + radiation

In natuaral convection radiation is very important!!

q= H*pi*D*Temp film + etha * sigma * pi* Dia * (Temp barrel^4- Temp surrondings^$)

so now for some numbers

Assuming a one barrel twice as thick as another (it doesn't really matter what the thickness is!) you get a heat transfer rate for the larger barrel twice as fast!!!!! This is a nearly linear relationship, 3 times as wide is 3 times as fast etc. etc.

YES THE LARGER BARREL LOSES HEAT TWICE AS FAST!!!! IT IS IN FACT COOLING FASTER THAN THE SMALLER BARREL........ but wait....

we forgot about heat capacity. A larger barrel has more heat to loose for a given temperature. Taking a .30 caliber barrel that is .5 inches diameter vs. a 1 inch diameter bull barrel there is nearly 5.4 times as much material. That means there is 5.4 times as much heat (this reduces to the 4 times as much material mentioned in an earlier post as the diameter of inner hole becomes less significent compared to diameter) . Metrically speaking you need to remove 450J of energy for every Kg of material in order to drop the temp by 1 degree C.

Now remove 450 j of energy from the small barrrel has a much larger impact on temp than 900 j of energy from the larger one.

In order for both barrels to remain at the same temp the larger barrel must cool 5.4 times faster (4 times in extreme cases) in order to match the temp of the smaller barrel.

In conclusion yes the larger barrel is losing heat faster however THE SMALLER BARRELS TEMPERATURE DROPS FASTER due to the smaller amount of heat in the barrel, not the corrisponding lower heat transfer rate.

Although the heat transfer rates do change as the temp goes lower this relationship remains much the same so your smaller barrel will drop temperature faster than a larger barrel.

heat transfer rates in forced convection are much more complex and would take a very long time to work out. This is due to the changing flow regiemes across the surface needing to be taken into account. If i get really ambitious I'll take a day or two to write a code for a simulation to see what happens.
If anyone wants the real hard numbers PM me and I'll send you my spread sheet!

I'm all typed out.

osborne
 
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