Bull elk / rifle / cartridge / bullet

BigUglyMan said:
The larger calibers with higher sectional density (SD is the key here) are capable of better penetration. On a full broadside shot this isn't super important...until the animal takes a step and your tight behind the shoulder shot placement turns into a shot through the shoulder blade. Or if the animal is at an angle, either toward or away, then you want a bullet with a high enough SD and sufficient velocity to get the penetration that you need. A 180gr bullet in a 308 versus the same bullet in a 300WM will perform much differently due to the 500 FPS difference in velocity. The 308 simply won't penetrate the same as the 300.

To get a similar SD with a 270 you need to run a 150gr bullet.. But that decrease in velocity creates a significant decrease in energy and momentum...35% less energy and 25% less momentum. That equates to less penetration. Even if you run the lighter bullet faster, say at 270 Weatherby velocities, it cannot equal the momentum of the heavier bullet. A person has to decide whether they want to plan for the worst case scenario or not. Your expected shot distance and angles play a part in deciding what cartridge to use. Going on an elk hun in an area where you expect lots of opportunity and have the chance to pass up an animal because the presentation isn't perfect? Then absolutely, take your favourite 257 Roberts or 308 Winchester. Going on a once-in-a-lifetime hunt where you have laid out a ton of cash to hunt a premium area and you REALLY want to take, not just any elk, but THE elk home with you? Maybe you want to opt for one of the larger rifles in your cabinet so that you feel more comfortable taking a quartering away shot at 300 yards.

The nature of the hunt and terrain should dictate your choice of rifles. I could choose my ATRS-built 300 Winchester with it's 5.5-22x scope for eastern whitetails just as easily as I could my custom Mauser 7x57. But the 300 weighs in at 13 lbs or more and has a 29" heavy barrel. Makes posting up inside my deer blind (think glorified outhouse) and getting the damned thing out the window much more difficult, all in the name of a maximum 50 yard shot. But that little Mauser with it's 18" barrel and 3x Leupold scope is absolutely perfect for the job. It's makes my buddy's Model 7 look like a farm implement. But if we were to take the same two rifles out to the parkland of Alberta and hunt the ostensibly same whitetail deer, the 300 would be a far better choice. The scenario could just as easily be applied to elk or moose...both rifles are absolutely capable of handling the chore and I would use either with equal enthusiasm, but which one would be the best choice depends entirely on the nature of the area you intend to hunt.
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Are you sure that as velocity goes up that penetration increases? (With the same bullet of course).
 
BlackRam said:
Browning 525 provides some great insight.
Myself, I have taken elk with the following:
20 w/10 different cartridges; (20% with non magnums)
270 Wby
7mm Rem Mag
6.5x55
35 Whelen
338 Win Mag (2)
7MM STW (5)
358 Win (3)
300 WSM (3)
376 Steyr
Crossbow
280 Rem
And my shot distances have ranged from 5 yards to 475 yards, and that longer distance was an under estimation of distance! (And the only two beyond 260 yards, and most less than 200 yards - bulls and cows, quiet to full on rutting and bugling)

And to answer the questions asked:
The larger diameter bullets of the 30 cal provide greater frontal area and heavier bullets with more mass and momentum that impart greater impa t energy on elk that must be experienced first hand to appreciate (something that paper numbers just do not illustrate as effectively).
Bullets of quality construction and high sectional density (regardless of diameter) definitely penetrate better than others, as recommended by African PH's and other guides that have more experience than the average hunter, by witnessing what work in the field on a wide variety of game, taken with a wide variety of calibers, cartridges and bullets, under a wide variety of circumstances (range, species, animal behaviour and states of awareness/alertness/activity/adrenaline, shot presentation and placement, etc.) Many have minimums and/or recommendations for a reason; they know what works and what causes issues they would prefer to mitigate or eliminate. Then there is the requirement to have enough velocity to reliably drive that bullet into the vitals, provide sufficient expansion to cause the appropriate amount of tissue damage, hemorraghing, and/or shock to provide quick, clean kills. And if heavy, dense bone is encountered enroute to those vitals, the bullet must have enough energy to penetrate that bone and still make it into the vitals for that same performance. On animals like elk, which have the densest bone of any animal in North America, this means more energy, bullet mass and sectional density. A study conducted years ago found that the minimum bullet that could reliably penetrate the heaviest part of the elk shoulder boone and make it into the vitals with enough energy and expansion to provide that quick, clean kill was the 250gr bullet fired from a 338 Win Mag. And elk have a tenacity of life that I have not witnessed in any other big game taken in 37 years of hunting big game.
Then there are bigger, heavy, slow moving bullets from calibers and cartridges that have plenty of mass and momentum to reliably break big bone, and penetrate deeply with sufficient expansion to provide enough shock and tissue damage to reliably kill elk beyond what the paper ballistics would suggest, such as the 356/358 Winchesters, 348 Winchester, 444 Marlin, 45-70, etc. Big holes provide lots of blood letting!
Can you kill elk, with smaller calibers, in cartridges with less velocity and retained energy at the animal? Yes
Can you do it reliably under every circumstance, every time? No
Yes, dead is dead...Yes. And again, No. Did the animal die cleanly and quickly? Did it linger in its death throes? And require extra finishing shots? Was it a long, tedious tracking job, where the animal suffered needlessly for hours, or days?
And yes there are hunters that have killed numerous elk with 243 Winchesters, but this is the exception, performed by very experienced hunters, with exceptional rifle skills and patience and wisdom. The question for those that do not fall into this category is;
Are you willing to pass up every shot opportunity that is less than ideal in order to be able to say that killed your elk with a lightweight, small caliber bullet?
And are you 100% confident that you can place that bullet into the vitals every single time without encountering that heavy shoulder bone?
If not, use enough gun! The 308/30-06 with good quality bullets is a better choice for many hunters. For me, I like even more diameter and bullet weight than the 257/264. And more velocity than most provide. (Yes, I took a grazing, unalarmed cow elk at 370 yards with the 6.5x55...an unexpected opportunity that took more shots than I would have liked and I learned first hand the it wasn't enough, for this species at that range and shot presentation.)
Elk are majestic animals and deserve our respect and consideration in ensuring that we choose the right tool for the job.
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Have to agree. Personal preference has been 338 WM, 8 RM and 340 Wby. Call it insurance if you like. - dan
 
uberti77 said:
Whatever. Head shots doesn't exist in my big game book...
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Which is great, but not relevant to the point I made that Pathfinder is referring to. There was no suggesting anyone could or should take headshots in any way at all.
 
I shot an Elk at ~400 yards with a 200 grain Nosler Partition in the 8x57, the bullet completely penetrated and is probably still going. The Elk just stood there while the rest of the herd ran off and waited for a finishing shot.

Basically could eat right up to the bullet hole.
 
MiG25 said:
I shot an Elk at ~400 yards with a 200 grain Nosler Partition in the 8x57, the bullet completely penetrated and is probably still going. The Elk just stood there while the rest of the herd ran off and waited for a finishing shot.

Basically could eat right up to the bullet hole.
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That's pretty good shooting man. Always wondered how that bullet does, seems like a real big game round without a lot of drama. Similar to heavy loaded 30-06 with Partitions.
 
Joel said:
LOL.

Because everyone would suddenly sell their rifle and all buy the same one, for any reason....

Doubt anyone ever said "kills better". A bigger bullet with more energy of same construction will kill better...the difference may just be trivial is all.

And I'm not that convinced you've killed that many elk either lol. But if you wanna think a pistol bullets worth of greater energy and a mm bigger diameter is gonna kill things decisively better than good bullets at adequate speed, you go right on ahead :)
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I'm of the opinion that if one has to esplain his logic to him he certainly isnt going to understand.
But , keeping up with the Jones will certainly drain ones wallet quicker than the one armed bandit at the local casino.
:)
 
FLHTCUI said:
I'm of the opinion that if one has to esplain his logic to him he certainly isnt going to understand.
But , keeping up with the Jones will certainly drain ones wallet quicker than the one armed bandit at the local casino.
:)
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Truer words never spoken lol
 
A lot of experience chiming in here with good, well thought out information being provided.

I would add on...

Regarding the difference between a 243 and a 338wm. They will both kill an elk. From my observation, and I have personally been standing beside a friends grandson who took his first elk with a 243, the difference comes in when the shot is not perfect and the bullet hits a bone or a branch, the 338 (or equivalent) will just plow through a shoulder blade, snap the spine, and then hang up just under the hide on the far side. A 243, MAY just stop on the shoulder blade with the bullet to be found by someone like me, apparently, some years later.

So once again, short of cluster munitions or a howitzer, shot placement is critical and I would offer, more so with lighter, smaller caliber bullets.

I'll offer my opinion based on real life observation of harvesting a dump trucks worth of critters. The faster bullets, traveling more than about 3000fps, tend to blood shot more than slower bullets. To me the velocity sweet spot for penetration without bloodshot is between 2500 and 3000 fps. I have not notice a difference in ability to kill based on these velocities, only a difference in blood shot.
 
Joel said:
That's pretty good shooting man. Always wondered how that bullet does, seems like a real big game round without a lot of drama. Similar to heavy loaded 30-06 with Partitions.
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Yeah, it works well on Elk, I got a Bull one time at ~100 yard on a mountain side, he made a short run and went down.

Works well on the larger Muley Bucks but IMO it is too stout for smaller (whitetail) bucks. IMO a regular cup and core bullet is better for smallish deer.

I've switched to the 160TTSX for a variety of reasons but it doesn't work nearly as well, or maybe it does, I haven't lost anything with it, but standing there scratching my head wondering if I hit the animal is the norm. With the NP larger bucks often fall and start rolling down the hill.
 
MiG25 said:
Yeah, it works well on Elk, I got a Bull one time at ~100 yard on a mountain side, he made a short run and went down.

Works well on the larger Muley Bucks but IMO it is too stout for smaller (whitetail) bucks. IMO a regular cup and core bullet is better for smallish deer.

I've switched to the 160TTSX for a variety of reasons but it doesn't work nearly as well, or maybe it does, I haven't lost anything with it, but standing there scratching my head if I hit the animal is the norm. With the NP larger bucks often fall and start rolling down the hill.
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Cool, I wonder how the 180gr 8mm Ballistic Tip would work on deer, although its rather thick jacketed, I bet it opens fast!
 
I've killed 9 elk, 7 was with the good ole 30-06, 1 with 7mm Rem. Mag. and 1 with the 270 Win..........................30-06 wins!!!! Honorable mention: almost got a 5x5 bull elk with a 1988 GMC Blazer, I'm glad I missed that one.;)
 
LMAO OK that mighta been a bang-flopper you can count on!

Of those 3 great choices I'd also reach for the 30-06 first....dispatches large beasts with no drama. Although I am sure the others do too :) Wouldn't feel undergunned for a sec.
 
Potashminer said:
Perhaps you are describing the difference between a "killing" shot and a "stopping" shot. In that four seconds, some game can get into crap that will take you hours to get it out from - water, swamp, willows, downhill. Or, if it is coming at you, it will very well kill you with a claw swipe or a kick as it goes past - "dead" on it's feet. So sometimes, you want to "stop" it - not to go any more - usually means to break structure, so that it can no longer go any further. Usually a "stopping" shot is very hard to do - needs fairly precise placement to do the job - more so than just to "kill" the thing - eventually. I have in mind like a cow moose charging you to protect her calf - you likely need to do more than just "kill" it.
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the two holes is better than one camp vs the one hole works fine too camp, you can prepare for 4' of penetration end to end shooting, blow through both front shoulders, or middle of ribs and 18" of penetration dumping everything you've got inside with rapid expansion and save some meat up front, these preferences are individual, most of us have a knife and a pack so dead is dead and 100 yard recovery isn't the end of the world, I actually find shorter recoveries using squishier bullets with higher sd and moderate to lower velocities than I did running delayed controlled expansion bullets at any velocity but I understand the limitations and choose good broadside shots to keep the odds highest, poking holes with tough bullets that do most of the work in the hillside leads to plenty of tracking jobs and longer recoveries also, ask the barnes guys ;)
 
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