Bullet casting for centerfire - I need education.

gitrdun

gitrdun

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It looks as though I've come to the right place to ask a few questions:

I am exploring the possibility of casting my own bullets. My primary will be for my .444 Marlin. Next to be considered would be 7mm-08 and .223 Rem. It appears as though Lyman and Lee Precision are on the forefront of equipment. I use both Lyman and Lee in my current tooling for reloading jacketed bullets. I'm not looking for an entire bullet making course here, I can search and find that. But basicaly just wondering from those of you that have the equipment which would be a better route to go. From my research, it appears as though prices are very similar for both. Perhaps a Lyman melting pot is better but the Lee molds are better...as an example. Have any of you casters any suggestions for me? Thanks in advance.
 
I am using a 10lb lee bottom pour pot. The valve likes to drip but otherwise it's a good pot. I'm not a fan of lee molds but then I've never tried one. I have mostly Lyman Ideal and a few Saeco molds.
 
gitrdun said:
It looks as though I've come to the right place to ask a few questions:

I am exploring the possibility of casting my own bullets. My primary will be for my .444 Marlin. Next to be considered would be 7mm-08 and .223 Rem. It appears as though Lyman and Lee Precision are on the forefront of equipment. I use both Lyman and Lee in my current tooling for reloading jacketed bullets. I'm not looking for an entire bullet making course here, I can search and find that. But basicaly just wondering from those of you that have the equipment which would be a better route to go. From my research, it appears as though prices are very similar for both. Perhaps a Lyman melting pot is better but the Lee molds are better...as an example. Have any of you casters any suggestions for me? Thanks in advance.
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for the 444 you will cast about 25 bullets to the lb of lead

forget about the lee moulds for a better product get a NOE mold

http://www.noebulletmoulds.com
more $$ but a better product / better selection

you will also need a sizer and a case flaring tool
 
I've shot near MoA groups at 100yds with Lee bullets using the 4lbs pot and a ladel. Slow but still good. I don't weight sort the cast bullets either.
Sized with a $20 Lee push-through sizer and cheap aluminum gas checks from eBay.
For neck flaring I use a Lee universal neck flaring die that cost me $16. Works great for .22 to .50 I believe (I only use it for .260 to .46).

I've got two Lee molds that are damaged now though; neither one is my fault as far as I can tell. They are two of my newer and less used Lee molds and I have around 15 molds that work perfectly so maybe it's not me? One chipped on the bottom edge of one of the cavities so now all bullets have an extra ridge at the base on one spot. The other no longer lines up properly; I think the alignment rods (mold from before they switched to pins) are out of whack. I'm not sure if I want to replace them with Lee molds or not. One is a .430" 240gr TL SWC and the second is the .457" 340gr FB Lee design for 45-70's.

I'm probably going to order a custom .435" GC mold for the 44mag. My Marlin lever has a large bore because of the Micro-Groove rifling; .4315". I have a custom sizer for .4345" from a tool and die maker friend. I've loaded as-cast up to .435" and they still chamber fine so I'm not worried about that. My only concern is that the .430" 240gr is my standard mold for powder coating bullets for the same rifle so I might replace it anyway for when I don't want gas checked ones.

Remember that you want the bullets slightly oversized; usually .001" to .002" above groove diameter. I often go .003" and have never had a problem. The easiest way to find your groove diameter is so slug the bore. Assuming a 308 barrel is actually .3080" is a recipe for headaches. Even new factory barrels can range from .3075" to .3085" in my experience. I like using Lee .312" molds. As-cast with wheel weights they are usually .3125" to .3130" and can be sized down as far as .309" easily for different rifles. I keep them .311" for all my "308" barrelled rifles so I don't have to keep different sizes separated.

Most people seem to not realize standard calipers have a listed error range of +/- .002" on them. Many of them have it on the back of the caliper itself or in the manual that no one reads. I'm friends with too many machinists to trust a caliper for anything finer than .002" accuracy. All my barrel slugs get measured with a micrometer with a listed error of +/- .0002".
 
Good info Lutnit. I've read somewhere that on the Marlins, even the JM stamped one, there can be a slight internal barrel bulge just under where the rear buckhorn sight is dovetailed. This would be the measurement location by which the cast bullet OD is determined, no? Maybe I'm being too anal, but I prefer to do things right first time around if I can.
 
i started off with lee molds and a 10lb lee bottom pour pot and made decent bullets for 45acp and 38/357mag which are very forgiving in casting and reloading. i now have a lee pro 4-20 (20lb pot), 10+ lee molds and about 10 noe and mihec molds casting for 9mm, 38/357, 45, 500mag, 30 cal and 8x56r.

if i had to go back to the start i would have went straight to the 20lb pot (to be honest i thought i was buying the 20lb pot, but i was the 10lber) but i would still use lee molds in a heart beat. well worth the money and great for newbies in case you do mess up the mold, only a $25 mistake. mihec, NOE, and accurate molds are the cats ass in the mold making industry and there are many more that make awesome molds. i find the mihec molds so pretty it's hard to start casting with them in fear of messing them up lol.

if you buy lee molds direct or from someone who moves alot of them (titan reloading, higgisons) then you will very likely get the newer style of mold blocks lee has started making which are a VAST improvement from the older double cavity molds. they can be turned into hollow point molds alot easier and just work great.

for casting i use welding gloves and hand break the sprue's instead of beating on them with a wooden mallet, etc. i use lee 6 cavity mold handles for all my high end molds as they work great and again are an awesome value for what you get.

lastly i built and use a PID temperature controller to control the heat of my lead/alloy when casting which helps immensely with having consistent boolits. they are cheap to buy and easy to build if your at all good with basic wiring and using your hands. a read through this thread should answer most if not all your questions on them http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?115724-Project-PID-on-Lee-Pro-4-20-furnace. i just dip my mold in a full pot of molten lead to bring the molds up to temp, but a hot plate is a great choice for preheating molds and ingots to add to the pot.
 
I've never heard of a bulge there but it is possible. Unfortunately there is no easy way to measure it without special equipment. When you slug a bore you hammer a soft lead (not hard cast) round ball or bullet through the barrel. It will swage down to the tightest point so you wont know if there are thicker or thinner sections. Some guys will slug the first couple inches in front of the chamber, then drive it back, and do the same for the last couple inches before the muzzle, and compare. If the bulge is in the middle of the barrel somewhere you would need an air gauge or something similar that can measure all along the barrel.

Micro-Groove barrels are really unpredictable with cast bullets. Some require harder bullets, some require softer bullets, some want them hugely oversized, some want gas checks, some work without them. It's a very much trial and error process with each individual rifle. My particular rifle doesn't seem to want to go past 900-1100fps with cast bullets no matter what. I tried some 240gr .431" gas checked bullets and they still leaded (no surprise since it slugs .4315". I haven't tried larger gas checked bullets yet so that will kind of be my last experiment. Powder coating the bullets stops the leading but the bullets still tumble past a certain velocity (around 1100fps).
 
LUTNIT, I imagine one could slug to the rear sight but not quite, from chamber and then from muzzle. The a third one completely through which would be the one to confirm if bulging has occured under the sight. My barrel isn't micro-grooved.
 
The issue is if the bulge is only at the rear sight, the bullet will get swaged down on front of the chamber. When it gets to the rear sight it would have already been squished down to the smaller diameter and wont really expand. If the slug is still engaged with the rifling (meaning the bulge isn't as big as the rifling is deep) you probably wont notice any difference in force required to push the slug either. Unless the bulge is right in front of the chamber where the rifling first starts, or at the very end of the muzzle, slugging the barrel wont detect it.
 
LUTNIT said:
The issue is if the bulge is only at the rear sight, the bullet will get swaged down on front of the chamber. When it gets to the rear sight it would have already been squished down to the smaller diameter and wont really expand. If the slug is still engaged with the rifling (meaning the bulge isn't as big as the rifling is deep) you probably wont notice any difference in force required to push the slug either. Unless the bulge is right in front of the chamber where the rifling first starts, or at the very end of the muzzle, slugging the barrel wont detect it.
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That's correct. You can "feel" the looser section as you drive the slug through past the sight dovetail, so you'll know if it's there but not be able to measure it.
 
I bought a Lyman 20lb pot right off the bat, about 1988 or 9 when I started casting. Still have it, still working well, and it's had a lot of use. I also have a Lee 10lb, I bought it for doing smaller batches, or some excuse like that. They both work well. If you don't melt dirty lead in a bottom pour, you shouldn't have issues with it leaking. Lee has worked on their pot a bit recently, claim to have improved it. Jury is out as to the new 25lb Lyman, too new. RCBS has a good pot, used one once when out of town.
All I can say is get a 20lb pot, when you get on a roll in a casting session, you will appreciate it bigtime over a smaller one.
I've got Lee, Lyman, Saeco, Jones, NEI & LBT moulds. Lee works, Lyman works, NEI was good, the Saeco was undersized, the Jones was perfect, and I have never had anything but good stuff from LBT.
His sprue plate lube is good stuff, blue lube is good also, and his hardness tester. His site is worth looking at for info on throat sizing (Lead Bullet Technologies).
The Lyman 450 sizer is OK, it works well, pretty versatile tool. The Lee pushthru has some advantages over the others at times, sometimes their sizers need a bit of finishing, just edge breaking for the most part.
I use Lyman M-die expanders, really work well. Get any size combo you want from Buffalo in their custom ones. I got Gator checks from Dragon lube, CGN sponsor, haven't tried his lube ( have some), but, he is good to work with on Lee stuff.
 
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A few tips on casting equipment. Pots and molds
Pots: Lee pots do not have a thermostat like some of the Lyman or RCBS pots have.
A thermostat helps to keep the melt at a constant temperature.
You have to keep an eye on the lee pots and adjust the heat dial during your casting session to maintain desired temp’.
Investing in a lead thermometer is beneficial.
Melt to hot and you may get frosted bullets and in extreme cases are brittle and crack, melt not hot enough and you may get incomplete mold fill and wrinkly looking bullets.
After the second or third casting session you may “get a hang of it” and start noticing early changes in your melt and know to adjust the heat before encountering casting problems.
There is a price to pay for convenience; pots that have thermostats do cost more.

Pot sizes. I prefer larger sized pots, nothing particularly wrong with using smaller pots, they do reach temps faster.
With a 10 lb pot you will run out of melt faster than a 20 lb, especially if you’re casting large heavy sized bullets.

Every time you add more solid lead into your hot melt you are effectively bringing the temp’ of your melt down and you may need to wait until you get back up to desired temp for things to run as you like.
Another tip to take into consideration is the type of lead alloy you are adding in.
I have in the past gotten my ingots mixed up and accidently added a different and harder lead alloy which made a significant difference in my end result bullet weight, so although the bullets looked the same the weights were not due to the type of alloy.

Ever since I segregate my lead ingots better, mark the m clearly and even plan in advance how many ingots I will use per session.
So , for me larger pots work. since I work with a larger volume of molten lead adding ingots to a larger volume means less wait time until I get the melt to my desired temp’.

Molds:
Some very crude tips about bullet molds, there is no hard and fast rule about which mold is better. really comes down to personal preference.
Some things to take into considerations is mold material.
Some facts: aluminum molds are lighter in weight and are easier to deal with, they do not rust and can be modified easily. Lee aluminum molds are not very expensive so if one is ruined in part of the learning curve it’s not the end of the world.
There are some very good quality aluminum molds available from various companies.
You have to be careful because you can overheat an aluminum mold and they can warp and ding out of alignment.

Steel molds such as RCBS or lyman for example retain heat much better than aluminum molds and they provide a different “feel” and pace in the casting session.
Steel molds can rust and should be oiled when stored and the oil needs to be cleaned off the mold before any casting is done. Steel molds are much less likely to warp and are harder to damage than their aluminum counterparts.
Steel molds are a lot heavier.

So these are just a few tips about things to consider for selecting pots and molds.
Some items I would suggest in investing aare a universal case mouth expander.
A lead thermometer , safety equipment such as welders gloves and face shield and a good cast bullet handbook (lyman makes one).

take your time, be safe and enjoy creating your own bullets.
Hope this information helps.
Cheers.
 
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Here are a couple good reads on the 444 Marlin and Micro Groove bores.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm

I do all my casting with the Lee 20 lb. bottom pour pot. I cast mostly for 38 cal. handguns and 30 cal. rifles in US and Russian calibers as well as 9mm and 9 x 18 Mak. and 45 cal. handguns.

Over the years I've collected thirteen Lee,two Lyman and one NOE custom mold in plain base as well as gas check versions. The Lee molds all preform well and cast nice bullets and shot great groups. The NOE mold is much nicer and better made but cost around $100 compared to the $20 Lee molds. If all I could afford was the Lee molds I wouldn't be dissatisfied.

I have molds with regular grease groove and some with the tumble lube grooves both types may be a plain base bullet or or one that uses a gas check, regardless tumble lube all my bullets and have shot those up to 1900 +fps. with no issues.
 
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I have used Lee moulds for years, and have had nothing but good results with them. This winter, I pour some bullets nearly every afternoon during the week. Quite often, the first or second bullet is good enough for me to use. I use Lee Liquid Alox to lube, then run through a Lee sizer to seat the gas check if required, then tumble lube again with Lee Alox.

I use a 10 lb. bottom pour Lee pot. I used a couple to melt wheel weights for a long time, so I broke down and bought a new one for pouring bullets. I have a new 20 lb. bottom pour - somewhere - but after 5 moves, it is well hidden!

I see a lot of pooh pooh towards Lee moulds. I wonder what kind of $hitstorm would take place if someone dared to criticize Lyman or some of the other moulds. :p
 
kjohn said:
I have used Lee moulds for years, and have had nothing but good results with them. This winter, I pour some bullets nearly every afternoon during the week. Quite often, the first or second bullet is good enough for me to use. I use Lee Liquid Alox to lube, then run through a Lee sizer to seat the gas check if required, then tumble lube again with Lee Alox.

I use a 10 lb. bottom pour Lee pot. I used a couple to melt wheel weights for a long time, so I broke down and bought a new one for pouring bullets. I have a new 20 lb. bottom pour - somewhere - but after 5 moves, it is well hidden!

I see a lot of pooh pooh towards Lee moulds. I wonder what kind of $hitstorm would take place if someone dared to criticize Lyman or some of the other moulds. :p
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yes, but lee's mold aren't top quality so SOME of the hate is warranted, but with their new style molds they have up'ed their game a good bit. regardless of that though, they cannot be beat for the price. as i've always said half the people who cast wouldn't have started without lee's low cost on getting into the casting game.
 
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