Bullet Choice vs Caliber Choice

[BIGREDD]

We have had many debates over caliber choices for certain game and we have had some interesting bullet choice threads running from time to time as well.
I find myself intrigued by the new bullet choices and new technologies that are now available and have found some of these new bullets are changing the way I think about certain calibers and their ability to kill game. :roll:
I have slowly changed from being primarily "caliber concious" to more of a "bullet concious" thinker when making a choice for killing most game animals :idea:
What so you think... bullet or calibre... which is more important for a killing choice?

 

[joe-nwt]

Shot placement. Nobody starved before the "buck a bullet" era.

 

[X-man]

I'd have to say shot placement is the most important factor when hunting, 'cause if you can't but one in the boiler room, doesn't matter how tough or how much expansion/penetration your premium bullet offers. That said, I think if you buy a decent quality bullet and use it for its intended purpose (i.e., not using varmint bullets to hunt big game, etc...) and put it where its supposed to go, you'll enjoy success.

Reloading isn't that big down here in Newfoundland, its mostly the few thousand guys who belong to gun clubs that do it, so the majority of game is taken with factory ammo, most of which is Winchester power points, Remington Core-Lockt, Winchester Silvertips and every now and then a Federal loading using Nosler Partitions. Aside from the Partitions, none of them are really "premium" bullets, but they work. There's 30,000+ thousand moose and caribou taken every year, most of which is economy end factory ammo, with the .303 British, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Sprg., .270 Win & .30-30 Win the top choices.

 

[bone-collector]

seeing people were shooting buffalo and bears a 100 years ago with them new carbeens I would have to just guess barnes-X didnt exist nor did nosler partitions ......

 

[Spitzer]

I think wound channels. The wider and deeper wound channels produce the quickest kills. A bigger cal. bullet already has and advantage over all small cal. Penetration is good too, but the bullet must also expand to a diameter which will produced the best wound channel consistent with quick kills. So it depends on the animal you want to kill, the caliber, impact velocity, and thus bullet selection. So many factors make it fun to try it all out. I like the bonded bullets so far, a balance of expanding diameter and penetration.

Xman is right though, 90% of the game shot is with non-premium ammo from Canadian Tire or Walmart. Most hunters aren't interested in wound ballistics or recovered bullets. They just know bullets kill, and more bullets kill better.

 

[bronco_mudder]

I don't think premium bullets are necessary to get the job done if you choose an appropriate caliber, at least on north american game. Of course if you don't hit any of the vitals it doesn't matter what caliber you use, the animal isn't going to die. That being said, even if you used some sort of deep penetrating bullet in the 22 format out of a hornet, and hit a moose or elk shoulder bone, I doubt that you would get penetration to the heart lungs. Using a quality bullet, not premium, but one that will hold together from a 7m-08 on or larger, with appropriate weight would likely punch through the shoulder and get the job done. It may not exit, but I think the animal would die. For deer, even the .243 does the job with standard bullets, actually I've seen many whitetails, and black bear taken with an old Remington 788 chambered in .222, with standard factory ammo, most with a single shot, although I this would not be my choice of caliber.

If you place your shots correctly, use appropriate weight bullets, and calibers, I don't really see a lot of need to pay a buck a bullet.

 

[1899]

I voted both are equally important because of the wide range of performance envelopes. Sure there were no partitions or X bullets 100 years ago, but their were no +3000fps impact velocities on big game either. a .257 Weatherby with a muzzle velocity of 3500fps needs something quite different than a 30-30 at 1900fps (which I believe was the original load velocity).

We have different tools available today, why compare to what was available 100 years ago? How much game did those hunters using a 44-40 wound? I think it is not possible to cover the entire spectrum with one blanket.

Propellor driven aircraft provided safe, reliable transportation 60 years ago. Does that mean we have no use for the jet? The answer depends: are you trying to get into a small lake to hunt moose, or are you off to Paris?

 

[JohnC]

with the scarcity of game and time to hunt it - for many of us the luxury of waiting for the perfect shot to present itself is not something we can afford. I think you have to use the the best bullet/caliber you can find and go for the boiler room as soon as you can, , not wait for the animal to sit still broadside do you can nail the second vertebra with a 155 or 168 grain.308 match bullet or equivalent.

when you spend something around $1500 to $2K (including travel costs) for a 1 week hunting trip, spending $1 a bullet or $2 a factory premium round is pretty cheap insurance.

 

[BIGREDD]

Some of you are saying that premium bullets are not necessary... but that is a bullet choice too :idea: :shock:
For example would you choose a Premium 150 grain partition bullet to hunt blacktails with your 270 or would you pick a bargain 130 grain V-Max or even a factory Remington Core-locked :?:
The debate is not about what bullet is better, a premium or bargain bullet, but what do you think about more.. bullet or caliber.... some of you are denying the obvious with your qualifying statements. :wink:
I think that 1899 made a very good observation.

I voted both are equally important because of the wide range of performance envelopes. Sure there were no partitions or X bullets 100 years ago, but their were no +3000fps impact velocities on big game either. a .257 Weatherby with a muzzle velocity of 3500fps needs something quite different than a 30-30 at 1900fps (which I believe was the original load velocity).

The other thing is many hunters have various rifles that they already have slotted for certain uses... and they don't think about a rifle/caliber choice... they made that choice long ago... but they are certainly thinking about bullet choice and looking at new technologies in bullets 8)

 

[Win94]

Shot placement. Nobody starved before the "buck a bullet" era.

Exactly. A bullet in the heart is a bullet in the heart. I swear some guys analyze this way too much. I liken it to the golf channel. How can you have 20 different shows a day on how to swing a fricken club and hit a ball in a hole.
Hit the ####in ball in the hole and shutup. :lol: :lol:

 

[joe-nwt]

some of you are denying the obvious with your qualifying statements.

Well then, why don't you tell us what you want to hear? :wink: Why did you create a poll?

with the scarcity of game and time to hunt it - for many of us the luxury of waiting for the perfect shot to present itself is not something we can afford. I think you have to use the the best bullet/caliber you can find and go for the boiler room as soon as you can, , not wait for the animal to sit still broadside do you can nail the second vertebra with a 155 or 168 grain.308 match bullet or equivalent.

when you spend something around $1500 to $2K (including travel costs) for a 1 week hunting trip, spending $1 a bullet or $2 a factory premium round is pretty cheap insurance.

The game aint scarce in most parts of the country I've seen. Perhaps, as a hunter, you are living in the wrong corner.

BTW, it's not just a buck a bullet, for handloaders. It could easily be several hundred developing a load, long before you embark on that hunting trip.

Shot placement is still paramount.

A bullet in the heart is a bullet in the heart.

 

[Gatehouse]

Well, lets get the obvious out of the way first: If you put abullet in the vitals, and the bullet casues massive damage, the animal will die.

Your best chance of killing an animal cleanly is good shot placement, regardless of the bullet or cartridge used.



On to the more fun stuff:

Premium bullets have changed things quite a bit for us in the last few years. They have increased the potential killing ability of smaller caliber rifles.

In the very, very old days, the only way to increase penetration and energy was to increase the size of the projectile. Think 4 bores :shock:

As we moved into the smokeless powder era, we managed to kill things with smaller projectiles, moving faster. Jacketed bullets increased the velocity we were able to push bullets, and helped keep bullets together to penetrate more.

But still, when we wanted to increase penetration, we needed to go with heavier projectiles. One of the reasons the .303 with 215gr bullets and the 7x57 with 175gr bullets killed so well is that they were large for caliber bullets, moving at moderate speed.

the larger bullets would retain more weight when they travelleed through an animal, and they would penetrate more deeply than lighter bullets.

Along came premium bullets, which woul dhold together and retain more weight, so lighter weight bullets will drive just as deep or deeper.

So now, we don't have to increase the size of the projectile to get maximum penetration. A lighter premium bullet can be used instead.

Premiums also offer you an advantage when things go wrong. :wink:

But back to the question: Which is more important?

To answer this, I feel that we must lump similar calibers together. A .375 H&H with any old 300 gr softpoint is going to kill better than a .223 withthe best premium bullet in the world.

If you lump cartridges that are similar to each other together I'd say that the bullet is more important.

If you had this group of cartridges, I'd say that they all kill pretty similarly, so the one withthe best bullet would kill "better."
7-08/.308/270/7RM/30-06/280

 

[SuperCub]

but their were no +3000fps impact velocities on big game either. a .257 Weatherby with a muzzle velocity of 3500fps needs something quite different than a 30-30 at 1900fps (which I believe was the original load velocity).

I think the comparision should not be between the 257W and 30/30, but the modern 257W of compared to the old classic, 250Sav.

Variations of velocity in the 25cal [for example] run from 2900fps in the 250Sav to 3600fps in the 257W. Using a 100gr Hornady SP bullet in these two calibers would have drastically different results at the same given range. The 250Sav may not expand at long range compared to the bullet that pretty much falls apart on impact at the same range from the 257W. This same comparision can also be made between the 30/30 and the 300RUM.

Extemely high velocity calls for the use of premium bullets, esp where there is a chance of use at close range.

In standard, non-magnum calibers, I use non-premium bullets of heavier weight with great results. The old 7x57 never suffered from penetration problems when use on heavy game with a 175gr RN bullet.

SC......................

 

[1899]

I think the comparision should not be between the 257W and 30/30, but the modern 257W of compared to the old classic, 250Sav.

:lol:

I had .250 Savage in there and then I changed it to 30-30 because I wanted to emphasize that there are many factors. But you are right in this analysis.

I advocate the same idea, lower velocity + heavier bullet leads to no requirement for premium bullets.

Each bullet has a performance envelope, let's say 1900fps-2800fps. Ifthey are engineered for optimum use at certain velocities, then why use it outside those parameters when there are other options that are more suitable?

 

[BIGREDD]

Su[er says:

Variations of velocity in the 25cal [for example] run from 2900fps in the 250Sav to 3600fps in the 257W. Using a 100gr Hornady SP bullet in these two calibers would have drastically different results at the same given range. The 250Sav may not expand at long range compared to the bullet that pretty much falls apart on impact at the same range from the 257W. This same comparision can also be made between the 30/30 and the 300RUM.

Holy crap Super... this logic is undeniable... but I cannot decide whether it is the caliber determining the bullet or the bullet determining the caliber... you did this on purpose just to confuse me :wink:
Hey Joe.... I can't make up my own mind ... how can I make yours up for ya :shock: :lol:

 

[stanway]

Provided you are using an 'adequate' cartridge for the intended game, then it is all about shot placement.

 

[Billy The Kid]

Provided you are using an 'adequate' cartridge for the intended game, then it is all about shot placement.

That is what it's all about. Technically if you chose "the vitals" as MOST IMPORTANT then you haven't considered variables such as range/caliber/bullet weight which all play a part in taking game cleanly.

Would you try to take a moose at 300 yards with a 22 Hornet and rely on shot placement? :roll: . I doubt it.

A good caliber with a good bullet/bullet weight (and the often overlooked skill of the shooter) will be the best factors to take into consideration in taking big game.

 

[stanway]

Provided you are using an 'adequate' cartridge for the intended game, then it is all about shot placement.

That is what it's all about. Technically if you chose "the vitals" as MOST IMPORTANT then you haven't considered variables such as range/caliber/bullet weight which all play a part in taking game cleanly.

Would you try to take a moose at 300 yards with a 22 Hornet and rely on shot placement? :roll: . I doubt it.

A good caliber with a good bullet/bullet weight (and the often overlooked skill of the shooter) will be the best factors to take into consideration in taking big game.

:lol: Okay, that's what I was trying to say!

 

[fogducker]

from what ive learned........its not the bullet.......its were you put it

 

[Foxer]

from what ive learned........its not the bullet.......its were you put it

Of this there can be no doubt - but the heart is on the inside of the animal, not the outside.

So - the bullet has to not only survive the inital impact, but be in good enough shape to make it thru the chest leaving a decent wound channel. For that - you need to pick a bullet that's in keeping with what your gun is doing and what your game is made of toughness wise.

With lower/moderate velocity rounds there's not much of a problem. but i've seen what cheapies can do in a 7mm mag at close range. They may kill the animal most times, but they definately can come apart something feirce, and that can make the difference between a clean kill and a not so clean kill. That makes it a poor choice in THAT gun.

Nothing is more important than placement - but you can do a lot with bullet selection.

You can go to a premium in a smaller, lighter bullet and go faster for a flatter trajectory. Or - you can go for hard cast and BIIG bullet at low speeds, and get devistating performance. You might want a more versitile bullet - a nosler partition is good for soft AND thick game due to the design. You can use a frangible bullet for varmints.

The key is to pick something that's appropriate to what you're doing. if you want the speed of a 165 grain bullet in a 30-06, but you're going after moose - a premium is a good choice. If you want to load up a 200 grainer in the 30-06, then a controlled expansion bullet is a wrong choice - it'll be going too slow to deploy and its not necessary for good penetration. A hard cast is hardly a premium, but it might be the perfect choice in a 45/70.

If you know your bullets and what they can do, then i think as a hunter you have a lot more flexibilty to pick a rifle/cartridge/bullet combination that will perform very well and give you CONSISTANT good performance.

There's a lot of things in hunting you can't always control - you can't always control exactly what range you'll see the animal at, or what the exact conditions will be, or exactly how the animal will be facing you or a lot of other factors.

But you CAN control what gun and cartridge/bullet combo you're using - Pick a combination that gives you consistant reliable repeatable performance that matches your hunting style, and fill your freezer. :wink: