Bullet Choice vs Caliber Choice

What is the MOST IMPORTANT factor for killing game?

  • Calibre designation is the most important factor.

    Votes: 5 7.2%

  • Bullet type/construction is the most important factor.

    Votes: 14 20.3%

  • I think they are Equal but both Important factors.

    Votes: 29 42.0%

  • I think it doesn't matter as long as you hit vitals.....?

    Votes: 21 30.4%
  • Total voters
    69
fogducker said:
from what ive learned........its not the bullet.......its were you put it
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That ole song keeps being sung, but without proper bullet construction and the velocity to allow that properly constucted bullet to reach the vitals all is for naught. For example - A bull moose is 263 yards away, due to terrain a quartering away shot is all you got . Your .243 is loaded with 80 gr. bullets. If you take the shot I predict a wounded moose.

Same moose - same range - .30-06 180 gr X bullet - meats in the freezer. Caliber and bullet must be appropriate for the job at hand. A minimal caliber with a premium bullet can sometimes get the job done with surgical bullet placement, but an adaquate caliber will deliver the goods with a Rem-chester bulk bullet of appropriate weight.
 
I just got home from the range and I was backing in the driveway I noticed my neighbor working on his truck. I went over to help and of course when the work was done the beer came out. While we quenched our thirst we talked about hunting. Moose hunting to be exact. Told a few stories, we both shoot the same cal, 300WM. While I put several hundred rounds down range a year, playing with loads, bullets, primers, you name it, he is the typical Canadian hunter. Fires a half box of shells a year just before season. I asked and he said he buys his ammo at walmart. He is quite content with a 4" group at 100yrds.

The point of my story is, he gets a moose almost every year. I get a moose almost every year. He gets his moose most times with one shot, I get mine with one shot most of the time. He knows nothing of premium bullets, he buys what is cheap. Penetration is something he gets with his wife. Expansion is what he is trying to lose from around his waist.

Maybe he knows something we as avid shooters/handloaders don't: maybe killing an animal for food is not quite as complicated as we think.
 
Hey joe at the risk of hijacking my own thread I gotta ask you what caliber do you use for your big game... I am guessing 30-06?
Do you use different bullets for different circumstances, like one for deer and one for Moose and Bear and do you handload?
You certainly can see where I am going with these questions... I assume you have been using your "go to rifle" for a long while on big game.
So I take it you don't really think about your choice of caliber much.
And as far as hitting the vitals go you are no doubt an accomplished hunter/shooter so this is just a natural function for you when killing game.... again you don't have to think about it you just do it.
And assuming from your inclination towards what you consider non-premium bullets and your fervent belief that they are not neccesary I would also assume you have given this much thought and consideration?

I reiterate that this thread was not about premium versus non-premium bullets... it was just meant to foster discussion about how many hunters have changed their priorities when it comes to choosing what they kill with :idea:

maybe killing an animal for food is not quite as complicated as we think.
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I don't think anyone can dispute that joe... as long as you make the right choices :wink:
 
Hey joe at the risk of hijacking my own thread
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Sorry there, bigredd fellah, my story was not meant as a hijack. I thought it was pertinent to the topic. :D

I gotta ask you what caliber do you use for your big game
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Told a few stories, we both shoot the same cal, 300WM
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Yes it is my go to gun, An A-Bolt Stainless. How accomplished am I? Well, I think I'm good, but in reality, it seems I am no better than my "shoot once a year" neighbor. :shock:

Yes, I handload. Yes I use different bullets for different game. BUT, not neccessarily selected for bullet construction/performance other than accuracy. My deer load is 150gr Winchester Silvertips. Not the new combined technology ones, the old ones. I have a few boxes I bought at a garage sale many years ago. They shoot wonderfully out of my gun, with most of my deer taken between 150 and 350 yards. For moose, I have dabbled with 180gr Failsafes, which work quite well, to interlocks, which work just as well, under the conditions I usually shoot under. Again, moose as close as 45yrds(that one was actually a rem corelokt) to over 365yards. All the bullets did thier job.

Caribou could be killed with a stick, if you had one long enough. :lol:

This is not bragging, don't take it as such, but to date, I have never had to fire a second shot at an animal. I am not accomplished enough to get really close to an animal, maybe I am more accomplished as a shooter than hunter. :wink: Any bullet I've used, worked. I suspect part of the reason that for me, bullet construction is not as important is that I always wait to get as close to a perfect shot as I can. I don't do running shots, would really think a long time about a quartering shot, and head shots past 75yrds are for cowboys. If this means waiting for the next shot, then so be it.

So if you don't HAVE to pull the trigger as soon as you see your game, and have the patience to wait for a nice broadside shot, I say it doesn't matter what construction bullet you use. As long as you put it in the right place.

it was just meant to foster discussion about how many hunters have changed their priorities when it comes to choosing what they kill with
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This is a point I was trying to make. WE, here, for the most part, are NOT your average hunter. We are enthusiasts. We buy the magazines. We develope the loads. We test the bullets, studying wound channels and ballistics. We practice shooting in the off season. We have $1000's of dollors of gear sitting on the bench at home, chronographs, scales, competition dies, blah blah, ad infinitum.

We are a small group, I think.

The next group, is those that can afford fly-in hunting trips. To them, $50-60 a box ammo means nothing. For some in this group, they would pay more for camo underwear. Not all, but some.

This is a relatively small group also.

The vast majority of hunters have no priorities when it comes to hunting other than to put some meat in the freezer. They don't have a different gun for every animal they hunt. They shoot everything with the first or second gun they ever owned. They buy their ammo at walmart. Some of them shoot a few rounds before season, many do not. Most will reach right over that box of premiums to get at the cheap stuff.

This is the biggest group and the group that shoots the most game.
 
We are a small group, I think.
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Well - i don't think we're THAT small, but we're definately in the minority.


You're 'second and third' groups i'd disagree with slightly.

I'd say there's a lot of hunters nowadays who're buying more of the premium ammo. As you say many are ones who've owned one or two guns, shoot everything with it, and rarely practice at a range.

But these days, i think a lot of those guys are going with premiums. 50 bucks worth of bullets lasts them 2 or 3 years, so it's no hardship to buy 'the good stuff'. Especially for those shooting magnum firearms, where the need for premium goes up a bit.

20 years ago the choices for magnum shooters in factory rolls were much less than today - now several manufacturers load premium rounds, and the new 'high energy' rounds. They can do a lot more with bullet selection than they could in years gone by, and they're catching on to that.

Lets face it, in something like a 30-06 you can control performance a bit with things like choosing bullet weight. A 180 grain bullet slows the bullet down a bit, and gives better penetrating characteristics (at the cost of a little range). Bullet construction is less critical. (although even choosing weight is still thinking about bullet selection)

But for some of the bigger faster guns that are becoming more and more popular bullet construction becomes a real issue.

I've noticed a few 'traditional' shooters moving to lighter faster bullets too, to flatten out their guns. One friend loves the federal high energy 30-06's - he uses the 165 tbbc at a supposed 3000 fps. This is a guy who killed his first moose with a 30-30, and knows you don't need a super-short-ultra-hyperspeed-belted-megamagnum to kill deer.

I think more and more hunters - even the casual one rifle guys - are moving towards considering 'bullet selection' a bit more.
 
But these days, i think a lot of those guys are going with premiums. 50 bucks worth of bullets lasts them 2 or 3 years, so it's no hardship to buy 'the good stuff'. Especially for those shooting magnum firearms, where the need for premium goes up a bit.
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I disagree with some research to back it up. :D Last night at the range, I looked through 3 full 45gal garbage drums at the rifle range while the barrel was cooling. No, I was not looking for brass, honest! :wink:

Now, I know it's not the week before hunting season, so the results of my extensive study may be skewed, but out of 3 drums, there was not a single box from any kind of premium bullet. Piles of power-point, corelokt boxes and an amazing supply of Dominion :lol: but no expensive stuff.

So these guys are practicing with the cheap stuff and saving the premiums for hunting? Riiiiiiight.......
 
So these guys are practicing with the cheap stuff and saving the premiums for hunting? Riiiiiiight.......
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Uhhh - quickly looking in my cabinet i notice three things -

1) - i have several boxes of mostly finished cheap ammo that i've used for practice, and will again from time to time. I mostly used cheapies when i was breaking in the rifle - maybe 100 rounds worth, and i still have a few left in 165 and 180 that i'll shoot off one of these days.

2) - i've got two boxes of ammo that are handloads, but were put in cheapie boxes i found at the range or salvaged from practice.

3) - i never hunt with non-premiums. :)

And i'll give you a 4th. My dad has used premiums for 20 years - had a guy hand load 'em. Never spends a day at the range. So no matter what he was shooting - you wouldn't find boxes of them at the range :)

I'd say your evidence is a little circumstantial at best. However - it might be an idea to start a 'poll' at the club - as you see guys shooting ask them if they are a) a hunter and if yes b) what do they shoot in the field at game? Might be interesting. Probably wont' get a significant sample (i mean, how many different guys do you run into at your range? Small town range right? or am i wrong? ) but it'll still be interesting.
 
Well I asked you the questions to see if you think about bullet type and I think your answer says it all joe....
Yes, I handload. Yes I use different bullets for different game. BUT, not neccessarily selected for bullet construction/performance other than accuracy. My deer load is 150gr Winchester Silvertips. Not the new combined technology ones, the old ones. I have a few boxes I bought at a garage sale many years ago. They shoot wonderfully out of my gun, with most of my deer taken between 150 and 350 yards. For moose, I have dabbled with 180gr Failsafes, which work quite well, to interlocks, which work just as well, under the conditions I usually shoot under. Again, moose as close as 45yrds(that one was actually a rem corelokt) to over 365yards. All the bullets did thier job.
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I cannot find fault in your argument for well placed bullets doing thier job... but your post clearly shows that you do think about bullet choice. I killed lots of deer with 130 grain silver tips from a .270 as well 8) I think they were, and still are a good choice for that application. Do I think there are better bullets out there... :?: Yup that is a given... the accubond does as good a job on deer as a silver tip at a much broader range of velocities with more accuracy :idea:
Again... I am trying my best not to make this a premium/non premium bullet debate... but I still think that many more of us are considering bullet choice as a premier consideration for hunting. :wink:
 
Probably wont' get a significant sample (i mean, how many different guys do you run into at your range? Small town range right? or am i wrong? ) but it'll still be interesting.
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:lol: Right you are. Our population here is around 22k.We have a nice range, trap, 100meter small bore, 300meter rifle, 50meter pistol and 50meter plinking. We have anywhere from 200-300 members at our range, but sampling them would be like sampling here. I would likely get better data if I polled the 100 or so fence hoppers that show up a couple weeks before hunting season. :roll:

but your post clearly shows that you do think about bullet choice.
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Well sure I do, mostly from an accuracy standpoint, though. But I am a handloader. The majority of hunters are not. Here would be a better poll. Canvas the gun stores in the area to find out approx how many boxes of premiums they sell. Then find out the # of licences sold from your wildlife dept. This would give you a better approximation of how many average people are using premiums. I would bet more premiums are sold to guys because the saleman at the counter said "these bullets are the best, they kill way better than anything else" than guys who are making a conscious decision to by a premium bullet because it may get the job done better.

This has been one of the more interesting threads around here for a while.

Oh, and you guys are all wrong, and I'm right. :p :p
 
BIGREDD said:
Rule of thumb, 1000 ft lbs @ impact with legal gear.
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Agreed... and a bullet that passes through an animal and puts most of the energy into the ground or a tree... would be a poor choice. :wink:
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True, unless it's a large caliber like a 45-70, that can pass through leaving a half inch hole, expend very little energy, and still kill effectively. And maybe the animal behind too. :shock:
 
Gatehouse, love your response. I feel very much the same way. Bullets in the boiler room first, but what are the options when the bullet gets there?

BR, one thing that bullets have allowed is for 'smaller' cartridges to accomplish the same thing. For the recoil shy or ones with aching shoulders, a 260, 7-08 or 308 can be used to harvest any grass eater on this continent with ease.

This has allowed us to 'perform' with smaller lighter rifles. It has allowed women and youth the ability get the job done reliably with rifles more suited to their stature. So I think bullets are the more important of the two today.

Big bonus has been how accurate bullets are today. Many hunting bullets are 1/4MOA capable. This again has allowed us to reach out and accomplish the job realiably.

Once a hunter has made his/her choice on cal/cartridge, just insert the appropriate bullet and have at it for the task desired (Varminting, hunting small to large game, target shooting). All good, all work so that just leaves getting the slug to where it makes a difference.

Jerry
 
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