Bullet Penetration Question

[Omega]

You can think what you like, but the bullet did not tumble because the wound tract is straight and a tumbling bullet will follow an erratic path.

As you can think what you like. It is a points like this that I bow to the experts and when people like Fackler talk about bullet tumbling I listen. So yeah I believe they tumble.

One of the reasons it did not tumble is because of the rotational velocity of the bullet that keeps it stable. By the time that the bullet looses enough momentum to continue to penetrate, the rotational velocity has also nearly finished and the bullet is now unstable..

Rotational velocity is quickly lost as the bullet expands. The dirty profile of the post expansion bullet throws a whole new set of variables into the equation totally changing the preconceived notions. The forward motion is still present and as Newton Law states continues on in a straight line.
It is funny but the two things we want most from a bullet expansion and penetration are mutually exclusive.

 

[Dogleg]

*Sigh* Sunday an off day for you is it? Try reading the post above that made hours before yours.

*Sigh* Sunday an off day for you is it? Try reading the post above that made hours before yours.

Sunday is a better day for going fishing, which is what I was doing. I was responding to the post directed to me. I do that, sometimes. You on the otherhand haven't answered the questions that I directed to you.
A .375 220 grain bullet would make a decent projectile for a muzzleloader, or something akin to a 38/55 but is a piss poor rifle bullet. A 250grain SST is one. What are you sighing about?

 

[470 Mbogo]

Here is the link to Perma Gels website and their videos.
http://www.perma-gel.com/video.htm You can clearly see that no bullets tumbled in their videos. The Perma Gel is fairly violent and you can also see the bullet is thrown around somewhat by the Gel when it comes to rest. All I can see is straight line penetration with a forward facing bullet until the very end where the bullet has come to rest. You can see the rotational velocity at work also. Take a look and see what you think.
Take good care,
Dave

 

[Murf]

Very interesting how the motions of the first block affect the second block beofre, while and after the bullet has entered the second block.

I to fail to see any tumbling.

 

[Omega]

Very interesting video! I wonder how they get so little reaction in that first block. Unfettered that 20 pounds of gel will launch 2 feet into the air.
I've never shot anything as slow as a pistol bullet into the gel and I agree they don't tumble. The rifle bullets I do think tumble in the vids and neither ends up facing forward in my opinion.

 

[470 Mbogo]

It could be the difference between a quality bullet that holds together and the one you used that blew apart. Just like the difference between being able to eat up to the bullet hole with a Barnse bullet and having to throw away a front shoulder using a Sierra Game King.
Take care,
Dave

 

[Omega]

It could be the difference between a quality bullet that holds together and the one you used that blew apart. Just like the difference between being able to eat up to the bullet hole with a Barnse bullet and having to throw away a front shoulder using a Sierra Game King.
Take care,
Dave

Sorry, I wouldn't call the bullets I've shot into the gel crap. That 220 out of the 375 H&H has been a spectacular one shot killer for me. The 250 SST has accounted for 40 some critters including a half a dozen moose. Every bullet except the Barnes have been captured in the gel and have shown great performance. 30 cal TBBC expanded to .755" with 95% retention for example. Several people claim the gel isn't tough enough to expand the Barnes but I disagree as I always get 2 to 4 petals shed in the gel.
The Game King is a very accurate bullet which rates it very high with me.

 

[470 Mbogo]

Sorry, I wouldn't call the bullets I've shot into the gel crap. That 220 out of the 375 H&H has been a spectacular one shot killer for me. The 250 SST has accounted for 40 some critters including a half a dozen moose. Every bullet except the Barnes have been captured in the gel and have shown great performance. 30 cal TBBC expanded to .755" with 95% retention for example. Several people claim the gel isn't tough enough to expand the Barnes but I disagree as I always get 2 to 4 petals shed in the gel.
The Game King is a very accurate bullet which rates it very high with me.

No one is saying they won't kill well. I'm just saying that the bullets that fly apart will create a more explosive reaction in your Gel and the bullets that stay together will penetrate deeper with less sustained meat damage (Barnse TSX). What velocity are you shooting those 220 grain bullets at and what make are they? That is a very low weight bullet for a 375. Is it a pistol bullet? It seems like it would be comparable to shooting a .458- 405 grain Remington bullet out of a 458 Lott at max velocity.
Take care.
Dave

 

[Omega]

No one is saying they won't kill well. I'm just saying that the bullets that fly apart will create a more explosive reaction in your Gel and the bullets that stay together will penetrate deeper with less sustained meat damage (Barnse TSX). What velocity are you shooting those 220 grain bullets at and what make are they? That is a very low weight bullet for a 375. Is it a pistol bullet? It seems like it would be comparable to shooting a .458- 405 grain Remington bullet out of a 458 Lott at max velocity.
Take care.
Dave

They are Hornady Interlocks at 2854fps well withing their design parameters. I've had 165 grain SST's at 3400+ fps completely come apart but bullets like the Accubonds, Interbonds, Grandslam and TBBC mushroom to twice their caliber and impart explosive launching of the gel. The more expansion the less penetration on average.

 

[Boomer]

They are Hornady Interlocks at 2854fps well withing their design parameters. I've had 165 grain SST's at 3400+ fps completely come apart but bullets like the Accubonds, Interbonds, Grandslam and TBBC mushroom to twice their caliber and impart explosive launching of the gel. The more expansion the less penetration on average.

No traditional copper cup lead core big game bullet has a design parameter that exceeds 2500 fps at impact. If the bullet survives the impact of greater velocity it might speak well of the bullet, but it in no way means that is within the bullet's design parameter. Anytime that less than a third of the shank is unexpanded should be counted as a failure on a big game bullet. Apparently you did not understand that when I suggested that it was a good idea not to over-drive Interlocks.

 

[Omega]

No traditional copper cup lead core big game bullet has a design parameter that exceeds 2500 fps at impact. If the bullet survives the impact of greater velocity it might speak well of the bullet, but it in no way means that is within the bullet's design parameter. Anytime that less than a third of the shank is unexpanded should be counted as a failure on a big game bullet. Apparently you did not understand that when I suggested that it was a good idea not to over-drive Interlocks.

The Interlock was designed to 2800 fps, the extra speed is the whole reason behind the locking ring. This I got from Steve Hornady while chatting at the SHOT Show. Granted the design is old technology in today's world but none the less a very successful one.
Perhaps you should call them up and explain their error?

 

[Boomer]

Once again you have misinterpreted the message. There is a big difference between a bullet designed for stable flight at 2800 fps and one that is able to perform properly with an impact at that velocity.

 

[sheephunter]

Considering that Hornady factory loads the Interlock in several 3,000fps+ calibres I highly doubt what you say Boomer. What's your source on this? No where on the Hornady site can I find a disclaimer that says don't drive this into a critter at over 2,500fps. This discussion is begining to border on absurd.

 

[mylesrom]

Three deer with 270 WSM loaded low to 2900 fps and all three bullets blew apart on impact. Huge entry wounds and pieces of the bullets everywhere inside... will not use them again for deer at those velocities.... there are better choices out there.

 

[Boomer]

Considering that Hornady factory loads the Interlock in several 3,000fps+ calibres I highly doubt what you say Boomer. What's your source on this? No where on the Hornady site can I find a disclaimer that says don't drive this into a critter at over 2,500fps. This discussion is begining to border on absurd.

Experience, something you and your pal appear to lack. As for absurd, it's interesting that anytime you are faced with a point of view contrary to your own, you are dismissive of the poster. This makes you a fool as well as inexperienced.

In the years from 1946 to 1948 John Nosler discovered that there was a way to improve the performance of high velocity rifle bullets, and the Partition was born. Until that time bullet failure was pretty common when impact velocities exceeded 2500 fps. With the development of bonded cores and mono-metal bullets, the situation has improved again with respect to high velocity bullet impact performance, but the problem has not been resolved entirely. If traditionally made bullets failed 50 years ago due to the limitations of their design parmeters, those kinds of failures with the same kind of bullets will continue today. To suggest otherwise reflects poorly on the speaker.

 

[sheephunter]

My, My...speaking of being dismissive. I'll spare you my CV as those types of #### measuring contests rarely result in anything useful but inexperienced is definitely not a word I'd use to describe myself. I like to think I'm open minded and willing to learn things about modern technology and not stuck in 1946. The Interlock is more than a simple cup and core so to compare it to bullets of 50 years ago is certainly inappropriate and certainly reflects poorly on the speaker. So just so I understand you clearly, you were using the 2,500fps number because it applied to bullet design of 50 years ago of which the Interlock most definitely is not. Certainly bonded and mono-metal bullets are another step in the evolutionary ladder but there were a few rungs between the Partition and the Scirroco. A lot can happen in 50 years. In fact, a lot did.

 

[Boomer]

From Hornady's website . . .

Joyce realized the need for better bullets and he responded to it. In 1949, using his training as an engineer, he and his original partner Vernon Speer built a machine that converted spent .22 rimfire cases into bullet jackets, and then into bullets. Advertised in the “American Rifleman” Magazine, these bullets sold well all over the country. Using a surplus bullet assembly press, he also began to produce a 30 caliber bullet. From the initial production in 1949, this bullet still remains one of our most popular.

 

[Omega]

Once again you have misinterpreted the message. There is a big difference between a bullet designed for stable flight at 2800 fps and one that is able to perform properly with an impact at that velocity.

Nope, I understood what you said, did you understand me? The bullet was designed to impact at 2800 fps.

 

[sheephunter]

From Hornady's website . . .

Joyce realized the need for better bullets and he responded to it. In 1949, using his training as an engineer, he and his original partner Vernon Speer built a machine that converted spent .22 rimfire cases into bullet jackets, and then into bullets. Advertised in the “American Rifleman” Magazine, these bullets sold well all over the country. Using a surplus bullet assembly press, he also began to produce a 30 caliber bullet. From the initial production in 1949, this bullet still remains one of our most popular.

Huh?

So you cut and pasted a paragraph from the history of Hornady from their website...how is that germain to a conversation about Interlock bullets. You do realize that it was 30 years later that the Interlock came along...right? Like I said, it was another rung in the evolutionary ladder. That's why your 50 year old data doesn't apply. You should have read the entire page rather than just the first paragraph!

 

[Omega]

From Hornady's website . . .

Joyce realized the need for better bullets and he responded to it. In 1949, using his training as an engineer, he and his original partner Vernon Speer built a machine that converted spent .22 rimfire cases into bullet jackets, and then into bullets. Advertised in the “American Rifleman” Magazine, these bullets sold well all over the country. Using a surplus bullet assembly press, he also began to produce a 30 caliber bullet. From the initial production in 1949, this bullet still remains one of our most popular.

OK, enough of your BS. I've been to the Grand Il NE plant I've seen the plaque on the wall commemorating the first Interlock bullet. What you have described above is the venerable spire point still a main stay in the line. The INTERLOCK the bullet I have been talking about was invented in 1977. Pull your head out of your rear!