Bullet Placement!

[BIGREDD]

I relaly don't see the problem wiht a follow up shot, even if you are 90% sure that your first bullet has landed properly. I say 90% sure because things arent' perfect and you can never be sure until you are gutting it..

If it ruins a bit of meat, so be it. I'd rther lose a pound or 2 of hamburger than the whole animal, because I was too overconfident to believe that anythign was anything less than perfect.

Well there it is black and white simple... you can't say it any better than that.

The silly argument that if you know where your bullet hit you should not need a follow up shot is nonsense. You can never be 100% sure where that bullet is going and what kind of damage it will do when it gets there!

If you are that worried about meat damage you had better give up firearms and use a net!

 

[BIGREDD]

However your experience is not the norm as in most cases where bad ammunition or bullet failure is blamed,the animal was not recovered.Blaming the ammunition or bullet seems much easier for most people to accept than admitting that their aim was flawed or that the bullet may have struck an obstacle such as a branch on it's way to the animal.Some people even manage to convince themselves that the ammunition,gun,or scope was defective.The truth is that unless the animal is recovered,you have no way of knowing where the bullet struck or how the bullet performed.I have witnessed several instances where an animal was fired at by one person who was absolutely sure that he made a fatal shot, and then the animal was killed shortly afterward with another shot.In every case,the bullet did not strike where the original shooter had thought it did.At that point I have also heard every excuse you can imagine for the discreptancy.I have seen a couple of cases where equipment was really the cause,but in almost every case,the real cause was shooter error.

Ain't that the truth Stubbs... I have seen a lot of what you describe as well. An honest hunter when asked what happened will only say... "the shot felt good" or "I think I hit him good"... and when it turns out otherwise he will suck it up like a man and say "I screwed that up!"
Thats why we call it "Hunting" not "Shopping"!

 

[joe-nwt]

If you are that worried about meat damage you had better give up firearms and use a net!

Well, perhaps some people need to learn how to place their first shot with confidence!

Everyone will continue to hunt in the manner they have become accustomed to, regardless of what opinions have been posted here. It is interesting to note the different styles guys use. It's too bad there wasn't a way to have a more complex poll to indicate the difference in hunting styles based on locale. That may yeild some very interesting results.

 

[Gatehouse]

Well, perhaps some people need to learn how to place their first shot with confidence!

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Unless the target is motionless and broadside, it is hard to be 100% confident.

 

[joe-nwt]

Unless the target is motionless and broadside, it is hard to be 100% confident.

That is precisly why I don't like to shoot at moving game. If it is standing still, I have the utmost confidence my first shot will be good. To gain that confidence, I fire many rounds all year long at various ranges. Given that, why should a similar shot at an animal require me to empty the clip?

If it bites me one day, I guess I will learn a valuable lesson.

 

[BIGREDD]

Well I hope it never bites you Joe... but if you shoot a lot and I know you do, you probably have seen all kinds of bizarre happenings off the bench.
Unexplained flyers, mirage that moves your point of aim 14 inces high, mystery bullets that impact somewhere in another dimension, a gust of wind just as your squeezing the trigger that lifts the weeds up into your bullet path. All of this stuff can and does happen in the field.... I had a train whistle go off one day just as I was squeezing on a standing coyote and I blew his back leg right off. Never say never Joe.... never say never.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

I have, on a couple of deer. I was told that it's an indication of a solid heart shot in many deer, they either kick their back legs straght out or go up on 'em.

Heart shots, are my favorite hit, still, never seen that stretch before.
Every deer he shot I think does the reach, like it was reaching for a high apple on a tree.
Glad to hear some deer do it. I was beginning to think they might fake a video or something

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Tree lounge videos, spine shots on those
I hit a whitie in the heart @ 200 meters, and my buddy next to me was watching through bino's, I did not see the reaction but he did, the deer kicked up real high with his back legs.
165 game king by the way. Anyway the trail was 20 meters long and 1 meter wide. The heart was split in 2 equal halves..

Any spine shots I've been forced to take, the deer has always hit the dirt like a truck had landed on his back.
Had to trail a spine shot that went bad for my uncle a few years ago, he shot too low, deer was bawling, and the job was just plain awful. Took hours to corner that deer, and put it away. One of the few times I've used a head shot, it was the only target I had. 30-30 lead bullets make a hell of a mess on a deers head at 20 feet.

 

[bone-collector]

so why is it a month later its still all about the placement...how about the fact that many if not most people just plain suck at judging distance and thats were the day begins to bite donkey , the vital area on a moose are almost the same as the front end of a ford pickup and a deer has a fairly good sized boiler room to that even a tard that shoots 5" groups could hit at 100 yards ......now if that tard had only known the deer wasnt at 150 yards but more like 350 yards the bullet may have killed it

oh and foxer , were did you hit a deer that causes all 4 legs to go straight out to the sides and his head to hit the ground first ? haha

 

[280_ACKLEY]

Agreed BR....

One shot kills are neat, and most of my game is killed in such a manner. Having said that, I have zero problems putting another one in an already well hit critter....

I hunt with a cartridge that can deliver the goods from any angle, and a bullet that capitalizes on that ability...and am not shy to take a good raking shot, texas heart, full frontal......and don't mind crunching bone if it gets in the way...

However, I will PARTLY disagree with you on this one:

Lost or wounded game is an unfortunate aspect of hunting but it is the truth.

It may be the truth, but it is still unacceptable. It happens to all of us.... but I'd guess 99% of them could have been avoided, and I learned my lesson years ago on a bear I wounded - purely my fault (ie combination of frangible bullet/poor placement/bad shot angle...).

It was a HUGE black bear with a 140gr Ballistic Tip (gasp) and I forced a shot through a tiny hole in the willows.... and clipped brush. A loud smack followed by a pizzed off bear and a few days of tracking/searching yielded evidence of a surface wound (I think I hit the shoulder with shrapnel)... and lesson learned!

I've learned from that early mistake, and am not making excuses... I screwed up! Sure $hit happens, but what we take from the experience is what makes us better hunters.

A hunter can screw up and wound a critter... but only an Azzhole will repeat that same mistake... I know I won't!

Mainly I don't worry anymore..... I am Captain Deadly...now I never miss (grin)

280_ACKLEY

 

[rollingrock]

Agreed BR....

One shot kills are neat, and most of my game is killed in such a manner. Having said that, I have zero problems putting another one in an already well hit critter....

I hunt with a cartridge that can deliver the goods from any angle, and a bullet that capitalizes on that ability...and am not shy to take a good raking shot, texas heart, full frontal......and don't mind crunching bone if it gets in the way...

However, I will PARTLY disagree with you on this one:



It may be the truth, but it is still unacceptable. It happens to all of us.... but I'd guess 99% of them could have been avoided, and I learned my lesson years ago on a bear I wounded - purely my fault (ie combination of frangible bullet/poor placement/bad shot angle...).

It was a HUGE black bear with a 140gr Ballistic Tip (gasp) and I forced a shot through a tiny hole in the willows.... and clipped brush. A loud smack followed by a pizzed off bear and a few days of tracking/searching yielded evidence of a surface wound (I think I hit the shoulder with shrapnel)... and lesson learned!

I've learned from that early mistake, and am not making excuses... I screwed up! Sure $hit happens, but what we take from the experience is what makes us better hunters.

A hunter can screw up and wound a critter... but only an Azzhole will repeat that same mistake... I know I won't!

Mainly I don't worry anymore..... I am Captain Deadly...now I never miss (grin)

280_ACKLEY

Ahhh, tell us how you tracked that wounded bear for a few days? That must be very interesting.

 

[280_ACKLEY]

Ahhh, tell us how you tracked that wounded bear for a few days? That must be very interesting.

Wasn't too hard... it wasn't far from my house!

I tracked it the first day until dark marking the blood/tracks....

Came back the next day (no rain) picked up the trail and followed it until the blood dried up. Followed the tracks until I lost the trail, and then spent the rest of the day doing a grid search back and forth.... nothing.

So I guess technically I wasn't tracking him the entire time...but I hope to never repeat that performance again on another critter!

280_ACKLEY

 

[BIGREDD]

However, I will PARTLY disagree with you on this one:


Quote:
Lost or wounded game is an unfortunate aspect of hunting but it is the truth.


It may be the truth, but it is still unacceptable. It happens to all of us.... but I'd guess 99% of them could have been avoided, and I learned my lesson years ago on a bear I wounded - purely my fault (ie combination of frangible bullet/poor placement/bad shot angle...).

No argument here Rob... I realize that even though we both accept that wounded and lost game is an unfortunate fact, there is much that can be done to avoid this tragic occurance. Your post is an honest appraisal of a mistake that you will never make again. I think that the more experience a hunter garners in his career the fewer mistakes he will make.
Experience and ability can also allow a hunter to recover from a random occurrance beyond his control and turn a potential clusterfnck into a successfully harvested animal.

 

[woodchopper]

Unless the target is motionless and broadside, it is hard to be 100% confident.

ah my favorite way to find and shoot game. I'll settle for slowly walking, but I will not shoot game that is in full flight. Too easy to miss and end up tracking a wounded animal.

This I've learnt from experiance, tracked a wounded deer 4 hours finally I got the chance to finish it and did so. That was many years ago and I did'nt like it.

Gutting and dragging out an animal is enough work, spending hours tracking it then dragging it miles is too much like work, I go hunting for fun and only want to do light to moderate work.

 

[eltorro]

I had a great deal of tracking once.... because of my earplugs....
On previous (one month before) hunt I shot some grouse.
Using a short shottie in 410, I had a great deal of pain after about 7 shots. In my ears that is. The moron I was couldn't find the plugs (who were incidentally wrapped tight and nice around my neck).

On this hunt, I shot a moose. The cow went galloping away.
I was sure about the hit, so I gave it some time - I brought my truck to get ready for loading - I was hunting alone, so a great deal of work was ahead.

After a good half an hour I picked up the trail and followed. few yards from where I shot her, she was down, looking at me, ears up.
I expected it to be dead, so the earplugs were in the pocket- after the first shot.
Got the first one - put it in, and then grabed the second. I dropped it.
I picked it up quickly and put it in.
The whole thing got my eyes away from the moose for 2-3 seconds.
Without a sound, the moose got up and dissapeared in the valley behind it. I had my boots on, and the snow was fresh, but that little move cost me 2.5 hours of tracking, tons of sweat and unnecessary garment wear.

All because I didn't shoot it again - being afraid of the report.
This year I got the electronic muffs, and I hope they work.
I have/had sensitive ears.

Too much confidence is not good.
Admireing the shot is a great plague for people with overconfidence.

 

[BIGREDD]

Too much confidence is not good.
Admiring the shot is a great plague for people with overconfidence.

Yup... Over confidence is a side effect of inexperience... or luck!
I have seen a few hunters who made a lucky shot or killed a couple of animals become legends in their own minds instantly.

 

[catnthehatt]

The tracking?
I got lazy in my old age!
That's why I like to shoot them high up on the ledges and let theem fall down to the water!!
Cat

 

[eltorro]

Yup... Over confidence is a side effect of inexperience... or luck!
I have seen a few hunters who made a lucky shot or killed a couple of animals become legends in their own minds instantly.

true !!
I've been blessed with some good shots in the past and I needed something to wake me up.
the reality is tough...
Next time I'll treat the moose like an armored APC....

Cat : one thing comes my mind when I see that slope: you need an MG42

 

[cdngunner]

Well Red I would have to agree with you and take it a bit further.

I have always maintained that Butt placement is the most important factor in taking an animal...
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If your butt aint in the right place youl never get what your hunting for! No matter how good a shot you are.


On the other side of the coin I have also seen people who do not pay enough attention to bullet placement and rely on a fully stoked semi to make up for their inabilities


Eltorro-

I hear you (or dont!) I am actually trying thos ear buds which can amplify quietnoise and screen out the report of a gun. I bought a cheap pair to see how they work and if I am happy I'll go and spend the extra cash to have "real" ones fitted to my ears.

So far the only problem I see is the amplify to much of your surroundings, wind, leaves falling, your clothe and even your breathing.

 

[Boomer]

It's better to be lucky than good!

IMHO anyone who claims to have never missed or lost game has limited hunting experience. This summer I missed an easy broadside shot on an impala at relatively close range, on flat ground. How could this happen? The impala was part of a herd which was mulling around, and I was too concerned about a bullet passing through "my" impala and hitting another when I should of been concentrating on the mechanics of the shot . . . in other words I was in an unacceptable state of mind - concerned about things other than the job at hand. I don't like to miss, and I really don't like to miss in front of a bunch of other people, but there it was, and there was no taking it back. On subsequent shots on game the recent memory of that miss kept my mind focused on the job at hand.

Experience is your greatest asset towards preventing wounded or lost game - simply because your shoot/don't shoot decision making has been more finely honed. The bang flops are great ego builders, but unfortunately they are poor instructors. You can do everything wrong and still have a bang flop, but conversely you can do everything right and still wound an animal.

If hunters as a group have a failing, it is in my opinion that they refuse to put in enough range time - or the wrong type of range time - like only shooting from the bench, or only shooting prone. Any shooting is better than no shooting, and it's difficult for those hunters who are not passionate about shooting to make the investment in time and money and do it. However, the statement - "a box of shells lasts me 20 years" - is hardly a bragging point.

There are very few natural shots, and most of those can be associated to the shotgun rather than the rifle. Like any discipline, shooting must be learned - particularly shooting which begins to add the many variables which are encountered in hunting. I am no super sniper, but I do consider myself to be a competent shot, and in a hunting scenario this is all most of us can hope for. There is more to being a competent field shot than minute of angle groups.

After years of experimenting with a variety of bullets we start to see trends of what works and what does not work. If bum bullets as a rule don't exist, then at the very least it is possible to pick the wrong bullet for the job at hand - or a bullet pushed to velocities too fast. I once shot a seal to pieces because I picked the wrong bullet for the job. The Speer .308, 130 gr, hollow point proved wonderfully accurate in my '06, but it's terminal performance on this particular target was completely unacceptable. Any .30 caliber bullet of 150 grs or heavier would of been a better choice.

Bullet placement can become far too complicated in the mind of an inexperienced hunter, whereas the experienced hunter does not even consciously think about it. This is not the same as concentrating on the mechanics of the shot - a failure in which is the down fall of many hunters. Instant stops resulting from brain or CNS damage have limited application for non-dangerous game, and a lung shot will normally get the job done quite nicely. The target must be thought of in 3 dimensional terms - not so much where the bullet strikes, but where the bullet track will compromise the target's ability to get oxigenated blood to it's brain - resulting in a quick and humane death.