bullet runout from different ides including Redding

Mudduck

Mudduck

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I have some different dies including Redding dies which generally give me about 10 thou runout when checking it on a Sinclair concentricity gauge (even after rotating it a 1/4 turn and pressing it a second time) . However when I use a Forster Benchrest seater die it goes down to 1 -3 thousands.
Anyone else have similar experience? How much runout do you consider acceptable for a hunting rifle?
 
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Generally for hunting 10 thousandths and under will be fine. I do however sort all my cartridges based on run out and anything over 5 thousandths gets used for off-hand practice.

Yes, I find the Forster Benchrest seaters to be much better than "standard" seating dies that don't align the bullet as it is being set into the case. Forster is my first choice followed closely by Hornady with their similar sliding sleeves. I also like the RCBS Competition Seating dies again because they control the bullet alignment. This of course is regarding standard 7/8" threaded dies. For ultimate alignment use an arbor press with in-line dies.
 
Hey Bothanks for the feedback. Weird thing is I was having the same problem with a Hornady bullet seating die. Went to a Forster seating die and the problem is gone
 
The problem with most conventional style seaters is that the case is not fully supported until the bullet reaches it's final depth into the case where as a BR seater holds case and bullet aligned before the bullet starts being seated. If the bullet starts crooked it will most likely finish crooked.

I have found however that setting the die in the press properly can eliminate a lot of runout. This sometimes takes a few 1/8th or 1/16th turns of the lock ring to find out where the threads of the die align with the threads of the lock ring properly to keep the die straight.

That being said, for me, anything over .005 runout goes into the sight in row in the box.
 
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I sometimes experience that with my redding dies as well...my rcbs dies in the same caliber gives the same results. My Lee bullet seating die for the 300wsm is usually under 3 thou. runout...go figure.
 
My Redding Comp die sets allow me to have 0 to 0.001 runout for my 338 lm rounds, but my RCBS 300 wm regular die sets can seats bullets up to 0.015 runout. Not good.
I should receive a new 300 wm Redding Deluxe die set today and I hope that their seater is better than RCBS. If not I'll have to invest in a Comp Seater die.

Mush
 
When checking concentricity of the neck after either FL or neck sizing have you found if some dies seem to give you better results? IF so which do you prefer?

For my 300 WBY I use a Lee Collet die plus the Forster Benchrest seater die (and a Forster FL sizing die for new brass) and it gives me great results.

For my Sako 270 WSM I was thinking about upgrading to a Neck bushing bump die - either the Redding or Forster - Any preference or comparison feedback? Although some posts I have read suggest that you are better to FL WSM cartridges, especially if its for hunting purposes
 
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With all my rifle cases I partial full-length resize with the expander rod removed after depriming with a dedicated depriming die.

I then expand the necks with a Sinclair Expander mandrels. Doing it this way takes a bit of time but I have taken neck runout to virtually zero.

sinclair-expander.JPG
 
'Boo said:
With all my rifle cases I partial full-length resize with the expander rod removed after depriming with a dedicated depriming die.
I then expand the necks with a Sinclair Expander mandrels. Doing it this way takes a bit of time but I have taken neck runout to virtually zero.
Click to expand...

I have the Sinclair dedicated Depriming die
Do you use the Sinclair mandrel in the depriming die as well?
 
No, it is a dedicated die to hold the mandrels. Sinclair makes two sizes of holder dies - one to hold mandrels under .35 calibre and one for cartridges .35 calibre and larger. (Edit note: Actually they make 3 different size with a dedicated unit for .50 calibre.)

The mandrels themselves come in 2 sizes per calibre, one 1 thousandth of an inch under bullet diameter (used for expanding necks for uniformity prior to reloading or prior to neck turning) They also make another mandrel 2 thousandths of an inch under bullet diameter which is used in their neck-turning tool. These turning mandrels come in either stainless or solid carbide the later of which comes with a healthy sticker-shock. LoL ;)

The reason I size this way is because of an article written by John Barsness many years ago. John found that most neck runout in resized cases was caused by the expander ball on some individual dies pulling the necks out of alignment when they were withdrawn from the newly sized case. John's solution to the problem is to resize the cases with the balls removed and then later open the necks back up by reassembling the ball and pushing the ball through the neck which in his experiments produced less runout. (The original article by John also explained why using standard 7/8" neck sizing dies in common reloading presses in a search for accuracy was often an exercise in futility)

I personally got hooked on the Sinclair unit by buying some to neck up cases to different cartridges such as 22-250 to 250 Savage and 30-06 to 338-06. The results I saw in low neck runout resulted in my current practice of using the Sinclair mandrels for all my rifle cartridge reloading.
 
Follow up question if I might. If you reduce runout to zero, or near zero, and then chamber rounds from a magazine, will the act of chambering knock the bullet enough to induce runout again? Does anyone have a quantifiable answer or tested this to find out?

I'm currently using Redding Competition Bushing dies, and have not dealt with checking for runout. I'm not sure if I should be investing/spending on another tool for the bench.

I shoot mostly NSCC Precision matches, and mag load for the 200 and 300 yard stages. For the longer range stages, load development and testing, I have the time to single load, so I just drop a round on top of the mag and slide into the chamber, usually with no hang ups on the feed ramp, I'm trying to have as little external influence on the loaded round, trying to keep accuracy and consistency in for best results.

I'm trying to decide if I should invest time and money to deal with runout... just not sure if it's worth it, basically not sure if there is runout, without spending money to find out...

Thanks.
 
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I could load a round in a chamber and extract it to see if the round get crooked out , but i doubt it very much.

Mush
 
peacefrog said:
If you reduce runout to zero, or near zero, and then chamber rounds from a magazine, will the act of chambering knock the bullet enough to induce runout again?


I'm trying to decide if I should invest time and money to deal with runout... just not sure if it's worth it, basically not sure if there is runout, without spending money to find out...
Click to expand...

No. If you have sufficient neck tension to produce accuracy the bullet can't be "knocked" out of alignment simply by chambering a round.



Reducing run-out is definitely worth it. The factory or gunsmith expends a great deal of effort keeping the chamber and bore concentric. You should at least try and keep your ammo "straight" as well. There is no need for gauges or expensive equipment if you just want to see if you have noticeable run-out. Simply place a mirror on your bench and roll a loaded round over it. Any "wobbling" of the bullet tips will be very apparent.
 
2 families of seating dies - BR style with a sleeve shaped to fit the case. Supports the case and bullet as they are assembled.

Standard die where there is an open hole in a die with a stem at the top. The case and bullet become supported pretty much at the top of the seating stroke. Or other words, a stem drives the bullet into an unsupported case. Not bad for hunting and standard shape bullets.

Lousy for accuracy minded shooters.

Sorry, the Hrn seater is a faux sliding seater. There is simply too much wobble in the sleeve to really do much to support the case. Essentially, the sleeve moves cause the shoulder hits the top of the sleeve.

Next issue is the shape of the seating stem. With long pointy match bullets, the ogive to bullet tip may be longer then the cavity in the stem so the stem cannot support the bullet in the seating process. Essentially, you are pushing the tip into a case neck which allows for all sorts of wonky entry.

Forster and Redding competition seaters typically have seating stems cater to pointy match bullets. With their proper fitting sleeves and better stem alignments, bullets and cases are better supported for a true seating.

Keeping neck tension moderate also really helps.

As for mag feeding, if the mag is center feed and aligned "high enough", the cartridge can enter the chamber without hitting the bullet tip. The bullet never touches the feed ramp. That reduces chance of bullets being knocked out of alignment.

In the typical staggered feed hunting type mag, the cartridge is forced to make a few directional changes and climb up a ramp. Here the bullet can get knocked about.

Best thing is to measure before and after feeding the ammo out of the mag in your rifle.

Jerry
 
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