Bullets pushed in on lever gun ammo, safe to shoot?

fiscus

Regular
Rating - 100%
38   0   0
Location
QC, Canada
I just bought my first centerfire rifle, a 1970's winchester '94 in 30-30. It came with 2 types of imperial ammo, and some have the bullets pushed in a bit, I'm wondering if its still safe to shoot the shorter rounds? Most of the ammo shows lots of use and appears to have been taken out hunting and cycled through the action plenty of times. The ones with the exposed lead point measure between 2.513" and 2.531" in length, this seems ok to me. The ones with the colored point measure between 2.487"-2.524", with one extra short one at 2.419"

I'm thinking shoot them all except for the extra short one?

imperial1medium.jpg


Interstingly he told me that while hunting he carried it with the hammer all the way down on a loaded chamber (for safety reasons), it looks like there is an imprint on the primers from the firing pin, I'm guessing the half #### notch is a better idea?
headstampmedium2.jpg
 
The half #### notch is the safety, fully down the hammer is in direct contact with the firing pin, and pin in contact with the primer.

As for length, pushing the bullet into the case increases the peak pressure of the round. The pressure increase is much more significant on small volume, straight walled cases because the percentage volume decrease is much greater.

I wouldn't shoot the shortest one.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320822

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322686
 
fix up the short ones by pulling them and recrimping them. looking at the price of the shells they are a few years old. are they still good enough to shoot at a nice buck??. if i had this ammo i would use it for target practice and get some new ammo that i know i could trust in the woods.
 
Put the short bullet in a Hammer type bullet puller & tap gently till bullet is in correct place then simply re-crimp it.
On the other hand I have shot some shortened 30-30 bullets just like yours with no ill effect. Consider after all, if the neck is loose enough to allow the bullet to slide back in the case that lowers the pressure build up compared to a crimped round, you could just use it for target practice.
 
Consider after all, if the neck is loose enough to allow the bullet to slide back in the case that lowers the pressure build up compared to a crimped round, you could just use it for target practice.

The logic would appear to be good but that isn't what actually happens. The neck tension is an insignificant factor for peak pressure.

Peak pressure (simplified) is a combination of powered burning speed, amount of powder, volume of case, area of the base of the bullet and mass of the bullet, ratio of volume vs burning rate as the bullet moves, etc....
 
The logic would appear to be good but that isn't what actually happens. The neck tension is an insignificant factor for peak pressure.

Peak pressure (simplified) is a combination of powered burning speed, amount of powder, volume of case, area of the base of the bullet and mass of the bullet, ratio of volume vs burning rate as the bullet moves, etc....

Peak pressure is not attained immediatly upon fireing. It takes time for the bullet to move down the barrel before Peak is attained.
Proof of that is simple. If Peak pressure is instant then a 2" barrel would develop max FPS in any rifle.
A bullet shoved back in the case pretty much only only affects initial pressure, once it's moving, powder burn rate increases to Peak pressure & should be roughly the same in either round (regular round or one with set-back bullet).
A heavily crimped bullet certainly increases initial pressure & can be a dangerous situation if the round was developed to Max with-out a crimp, then a heavy crimp added.
In other words a neck loose enough to permit a bullet to slide around in it certainly will decrease initial pressure, enough to balance out the extra pressure of a bullet set back into the case(less volume).
Perhaps I should have made it more clear in other post in talking about pressure but I would have assumed most would realize we were talking about initial pressure build-up when talking a set back bullet.
 
If your planning on hunting with the rifle, buy new ammo. Easy to get at Walmart or Canadian Tire and not very Expensive. Fire those old ones off for practice, except maybe the short one, and or keep them as period pieces to match the erra of the rifle in which it was manufactured. Keep a full box and fire the excess.
 
Peak pressure is not attained immediatly upon fireing. It takes time for the bullet to move down the barrel before Peak is attained.
Proof of that is simple. If Peak pressure is instant then a 2" barrel would develop max FPS in any rifle.
A bullet shoved back in the case pretty much only only affects initial pressure, once it's moving, powder burn rate increases to Peak pressure & should be roughly the same in either round (regular round or one with set-back bullet).
A heavily crimped bullet certainly increases initial pressure & can be a dangerous situation if the round was developed to Max with-out a crimp, then a heavy crimp added.
In other words a neck loose enough to permit a bullet to slide around in it certainly will decrease initial pressure, enough to balance out the extra pressure of a bullet set back into the case(less volume).
Perhaps I should have made it more clear in other post in talking about pressure but I would have assumed most would realize we were talking about initial pressure build-up when talking a set back bullet.

Peak pressure in a 30-30 is attained by the time the bullet has moved about 3/4". Magnum cartridges with slow powder reach peak pressure at about 2" and handguns with small cases and fast powder reach peak pressure in 1/8" to 1/4" of travel. (yep, the bullet hasn't even left the case)

Proof of that is simple. If Peak pressure is instant then a 2" barrel would develop max FPS in any rifle.

Sorry, but that is not quite right. Don't confuse velocity with peak pressure and the pressure curve within the barrel. The "factors" you mention are minor. A heavy crimp will slightly advance the timing of peak pressure, but not have a significant effect on the peak.

I am very familiar with internal ballistics and the computer modelling of it. It is very complex and every time you change one variable, everything changes, and it is difficult to explain in a couple sentences. However some variables are much less significant than others in regards to PEAK PRESSURE. A loose neck will change the timing of the peak, but will not have much of an effect on it. However a large PERCENTAGE change in case capacity has a huge effect on peak pressure.

So a small volume, straight walled case will have a much higher % change for a small setback of the bullet (such as 9mm), so a small setback will have a major effect on pressure. But a large case with a small diameter bullet, (large overbore magnums) will have a very small change in case volume for a small setback, and the peak pressure increase will be very minor.

It is very difficult to fully understand what happens with internal ballistics because EVERYTHING is interrelated and you can't change one thing without changing everything. Simplifications and generalizations are fine and don't really affect the outcome (velocity) too much when changes are small, but that is not what is actually occurring. For larger changes, then all the simplifications break down really quickly.
 
Last edited:
I bow to you knowledge Sandroad.

But I am with joe-nwt, send me the short ones too :D

;)Guess who he sent the short ones to? Na-na-na-NA-na.......:D

Fiscus sent me the short one and a few others as well with a request to run them over the chrony and post the results here. He even sent an extra to dissect should I be at all concerned that the ammo had been reloaded or tampered with in any way. After a quick examination I was confident that the ammo was factory original with the one round having the bullet pushed in somewhat. I just got back from the range.

Overcast skies, +1C. Chrony F-1. Test gun: Thompson Center Contender, 10" barrel. I fired a few of my own reloads over the chrony to verify it was working properly. I then fired the four rounds fiscus sent.

1) 1796fps
2) 1845fps
3) 1833fps

And the moment you've all been waiting for, the short one.......

4) 1794fps

So there was no discernible difference in velocity with the short round and hence, likely no real difference in pressure either. Now I am in no way advocating that this type of experimentation is safe in every circumstance. Differences in case sizes, bullet weights and powders all play a part in addition to seating depth in the pressure developed in any given case. Typically, the smaller the case the greater the effect seating depth has on pressure.

There is nothing wrong with asking if you are unsure, however I would hope that your decision to repeat my experiments are based on your own experiences and knowledge rather than my, or anyone else's postings on the internet.
 
Back
Top Bottom